Mobius, Scapegoat and Torrential Tribute

J

Jack-Wyler

New Member
I have 2 traps set on the field (Scapegoat and Torrential Tribute), my oppenent summons Mobius.
Could I activate Scapegoat and then Torrential Tribute to destroy Mobius and have token on the field ? Or might I activate Torrential at the exact trigger and so activating Scapegoat becomes useless because they would be destroy by the Torrential?
 
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The issue is, the "Basic Rule" of Counter Traps says that Counter Traps can only be used to Counter the card previously played in the chain.

That's just a Basic Rule.

Not all Counter Traps are the usual Solemn Judgment, Magic Jammer type, and have different timing.
 
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Yah, it's what the DaGuyWitBluGlasses says, and said very well I might add!!!

My statement: "The only rule I am aware of is that counter traps that negate card effects must be activated immediately after that effect is activated." is not from UDE. It is a summary statement I have used to teach lower level judges since "Divine Wrath" was released.

Please read the rules posted on "Divine Wrath". If several monster effects go on chain, "Divine Wrath" may only negate the last effect on chain, which is the effect DW will be chained to. As a counter trap, it may not interrupt any existing links of a chain. Example from UDE: If "D.D. Warrior Lady" attacks a face-down "Morphing Jar", and activates her effect to remove both cards from play, "D.D. Warrior Lady" is Step 2 because she has an optional effect, and "Morphing Jar" is Step 1 because its effect is mandatory. So "Divine Wrath" can be chained to the effect of "D.D. Warrior Lady" to negate its effect, but not to the effect of "Morphing Jar" to negate its effect.

Notice both in the rulebook and the Advanced Gameplay FAQ that the author left room for exceptions to the "countertrap rule". As DaGuyWitBluGlasses nobly pointed out, there are a few countertraps that are activated in response to a game action, not a card effect. "Horn of Heaven", "Forced Back", "Negate Attack", and "Solemn Judgment" come to mind. Not only can these cards be activated without any preceding effect on chain; if the timing is right, these cards can be activated in a chain, without negating the card preceding it.

Now, back to my statement above. Do you know of any countertraps that break that rule? I could have easily said "Counter traps that negate card effects must be chained immediately after the effect is activated." As far as I know this rule is valid for all released TCG cards.

[EDIT] Just for clarification, I do not disagree with what UDE has posted on the Advanced Gameplay FAQ or what is in the Rulebook. Those statements are accurate. I had a nitpicky problem with what one poster stated that once a countertrap had been played, ONLY countertraps that would negate the preceding card could be chained. That's simply not true by the examples I've posted. Yes, it is nitpicky, but most of y'all are highly knowledgable about the game, so these exceptions should be known. These exceptions do follow current game play rules and mechanics.

doc
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Er, it just sounds to me like everybody is saying the same thing using different terminology. Could someone lay out what I'm missing?
Click to expand...
doc started it, DaGuy and woo0 seem to have 'agreed' with him on it, but I just can't believe it.

Basically what they are all saying is this. If the timing is still correct for the activation of a Spell Speed 3 card, you can activate that card at any point during the chain. Which is completely ludicrous.

doc stated the following to be true...

P1 declare summon
P2 respond with "Forced Back" (SS3)
P1 chain "Seven Tools of the Bandit" (SS3)
P2 chain "Horn of Heaven" (SS3) <--Huh? The ONLY thing you can chain at this point is something that will stop "Seven Tools of the Bandit". You can't still respond to the declaration of the summon.

DaGuy backed him up by stating that basically 'I' have to prove them wrong.

And then woo0 came in and said the same thing that doc stated, just in different words.

The only thing that is certain is that "Negate Attack" is the ONLY oddball Counter Trap in the game, as it is the ONLY one that doesn't follow the Counter Trap rules.


Does that help?

[edit]I'll add this one last thing. What is the purpose of Counter Trap Cards? To negate an event or effect.
Can anybody show me a Counter Trap Card (other than "Barrel Behind the Door") that doesn't negate one of those things?
 
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skey23 said:
The only thing that is certain is that "Negate Attack" is the ONLY oddball Counter Trap in the game, as it is the ONLY one that doesn't follow the Counter Trap rules.
Click to expand...

No, its certain that other counter traps can begin a chain (when the rule says normal counter traps must be chained to the"¦)

It's certian then that thsoe that negate summons are also odd-balls.

Although its possible that the other odd-balls don't work the same way as negate attack, there is no evidence of that.
 
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Which goes back to the question of "When is the correct timing for a Solemn Judgment, Horn of Heaven, Forced Back, to be activated?"

Obviously, if Solemn Judgment cannot be activated in a "chain" to a card effect, if its intended purpose is to negate a Summon, then when a monster is summoned, and the opponent activates "Enemy Controller" to change him to defense, he would not then be able to activate Solemn Judgment to negate the summon if the turn player played Magic Drain to negate Enemy controller.

Isnt the last thing to happen a Summon?
 
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skey23 said:
Basically what they are all saying is this. If the timing is still correct for the activation of a Spell Speed 3 card, you can activate that card at any point during the chain. Which is completely ludicrous.
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So if my opponent declares he is summoning Jinzo and I activate Solemn Judgement, my opponent chains Seven Tools of the Bandit, for what reason would I not be able to chain another Solemn Judgment? If timing is correct, then timing is correct, isn't it?
 
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According to Digital Jedi's last response, it has always been my understanding that if I played Solemn Judgement in response to a summon, and someone negated that Solemn Judgement (i.e. with Seven Tools), then if I activated a second SJ, that SJ would be negating the Seven Tools, not the summoning.
 
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From the Judge's List: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2244#2244

Highlights below:


Re: Chaining in the battle phase - Negate Attack
2004-11-23 12:03:00 <Alejandro Quintero Acevedo>


Hold on. I thought a Counter-Trap could only be
activated in DIRECT response to the card/action
preceding it. Isn't that the reason you can't use
Barrel Behind the Door against your own Ring of
Destruction if someone chains something to your Ring
of Destruction? So why does Negate Attack, being a
Counter-Trap, work on the next chain link against
Seven Tools of the Bandit?

-------------------------------------------


Negate Attack" is just weird.

Kevin Tewart
Game Developer
UDE Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D Lead
Upper Deck Entertainment



====================



Just weird? This mean that negate Attack is the only card that bypass the rule
that a counter trap card must be activated in DIRECT response to the card/action
preceding it?

Thanks


------------------------------------------

It means that "Negate Attack" isn't activated in response to a card or a card
effect.

Which makes it, by definition, weird.

Kevin Tewart
Game Developer
UDE Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D Lead
Upper Deck Entertainment
 
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frostmonarch said:
According to Digital Jedi's last response, it has always been my understanding that if I played Solemn Judgement in response to a summon, and someone negated that Solemn Judgement (i.e. with Seven Tools), then if I activated a second SJ, that SJ would be negating the Seven Tools, not the summoning.
Click to expand...
In this case, does it make a difference? If you negate Seven Tools of the Bandit with the 2nd Solemn Judgment, it still negates the summon with the first one. If you chain the 2nd solemn judgment to negate the summon (if this is indeed legal), then it still negates the summon regardless. The only question is, can you?

And, DarkLogicianOfCaos, I know that same email is already on the site from another debate about chaining and Counter Traps, but thanks for bringing it to this one anyway....
 
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And that was left ambiguous on the judge's list. He (Curtis or Kevin) simply said that chaining the second Solemn "would work" but did not specify how. Probably because he assumed that everybody knew that it would be negating 7 Tools. But that is an assumption on my part (albait a good one).

**eats a nacho chip**
 
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ygo doc said:
Yah, it's what the DaGuyWitBluGlasses says, and said very well I might add!!!

My statement: "The only rule I am aware of is that counter traps that negate card effects must be activated immediately after that effect is activated." is not from UDE. It is a summary statement I have used to teach lower level judges since "Divine Wrath" was released.

Please read the rules posted on "Divine Wrath". If several monster effects go on chain, "Divine Wrath" may only negate the last effect on chain, which is the effect DW will be chained to. As a counter trap, it may not interrupt any existing links of a chain. Example from UDE: If "D.D. Warrior Lady" attacks a face-down "Morphing Jar", and activates her effect to remove both cards from play, "D.D. Warrior Lady" is Step 2 because she has an optional effect, and "Morphing Jar" is Step 1 because its effect is mandatory. So "Divine Wrath" can be chained to the effect of "D.D. Warrior Lady" to negate its effect, but not to the effect of "Morphing Jar" to negate its effect.

Notice both in the rulebook and the Advanced Gameplay FAQ that the author left room for exceptions to the "countertrap rule". As DaGuyWitBluGlasses nobly pointed out, there are a few countertraps that are activated in response to a game action, not a card effect. "Horn of Heaven", "Forced Back", "Negate Attack", and "Solemn Judgment" come to mind. Not only can these cards be activated without any preceding effect on chain; if the timing is right, these cards can be activated in a chain, without negating the card preceding it.

Now, back to my statement above. Do you know of any countertraps that break that rule? I could have easily said "Counter traps that negate card effects must be chained immediately after the effect is activated." As far as I know this rule is valid for all released TCG cards.

[EDIT] Just for clarification, I do not disagree with what UDE has posted on the Advanced Gameplay FAQ or what is in the Rulebook. Those statements are accurate. I had a nitpicky problem with what one poster stated that once a countertrap had been played, ONLY countertraps that would negate the preceding card could be chained. That's simply not true by the examples I've posted. Yes, it is nitpicky, but most of y'all are highly knowledgable about the game, so these exceptions should be known. These exceptions do follow current game play rules and mechanics.

doc
Click to expand...

ok - tell me what i am missing... these effects are in the "resolve effects" part of the damage step....i thought that the only things you could activate in damage step were cards that affect atk/def....for example (i thought) call of the haunted cannot be activated in response to kycoo's effect....right? - it would resolve after kycoo removes 2 and any other effects....
 
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cuzwbd said:
ok - tell me what i am missing... these effects are in the "resolve effects" part of the damage step....i thought that the only things you could activate in damage step were cards that affect atk/def....for example (i thought) call of the haunted cannot be activated in response to kycoo's effect....right? - it would resolve after kycoo removes 2 and any other effects....
Click to expand...

You can a activate:

Atk/Def Modifiers
Counter Traps
Specific ruling cards or with specific timings (ie, Null and Void)
 
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cuzwbd said:
ok - tell me what i am missing... these effects are in the "resolve effects" part of the damage step....i thought that the only things you could activate in damage step were cards that affect atk/def....for example (i thought) call of the haunted cannot be activated in response to kycoo's effect....right? - it would resolve after kycoo removes 2 and any other effects....
Click to expand...
That's not at all what he's saying. What he's saying is that a Spell Speed 3 doesn't neccessarily HAVE to be in response the very next card it's affecting on the chain. WHile this is true of most Counter Trap like Barrel Behind the Door and Magic Jammer because of their timing, it's shouldn't neccessariyl be tru of a card like Solemn Judgment which is responding to a summon. It certainly isn't true of Negate Attack. The issue is how Counter Traps must be chained to each other.
 
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DJ, Why do you think (and I don't mean that in a mean way) that Solemn Judgement is one of the "weird" cards? Just because it can "counter" a Summon? Read the following links. In order for Solemn Judgement to negate the Summon of a Monster, it MUST be activated IMMEDIATELY after the Monster hits, but BEFORE it is properly summoned. Therfore, even with a summon, the Counter Trap must be directly following the summon.
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=8997#8997

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=8057#8057

 
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The very definition of a Counter Trap Card is to 'counter' the event or effect that is immediately preceeding it.

Saying it can be used later in a chain to negate the 1st event in that chain just doesn't make any sense.
 
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No, I never said I thought any of the Counter Traps were weird. I've mentioned this before, on another thread many months ago, that I think our perception of the Counter Traps is incorrect. I don't think Solemn Judgement is weird at all. And I don't, for that matter, think Negate Attack is "just weird" as Kevin seems to. In my mind, this was how Counter Traps always worked.

Everything that I see with regards to Counter Trap Cards says that they can only be activated directly after, in direct response to, the card they are are attempting to affect . . . in a chain. Nothing I've seen thus far says to me that when the event it is attempting to negate is not in the chain, that it has to be directly activate in response to it.

What I'm saying is, I think we've taken the response timing of the majority of Counter Traps and made that timing the rule for all Counter Traps. Remember a few months ago when some people thought that just because a Monster Effect had negation ability that it made it possible to activate it in the Damage Step? Some even thought that made them Spell Speed 3 effects. They were taking a commonality and turning it into a mechanic. That is all I'm implying here. I think because 99% of Counter Traps have timing where they can only be chained directly to what they are negating, that we are calling that the rule for all of them. I think that we are forgetting is that a handful of Counter Traps don't respond to chainable events. I think Kevin doesn't fully understand the mechanics behind it all and dismissed it with a "it's just weird" to avoid having to try explaining it. One things for certain though, or maybe I've missed it, I don't see any evidence saying that is right or wrong. Which is what's most important here. Until we define that this is actually a place where definition is lacking, we won't get to the point where we can obtain an answer.
 
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