Mobius, Scapegoat and Torrential Tribute

J

Jack-Wyler

New Member
I have 2 traps set on the field (Scapegoat and Torrential Tribute), my oppenent summons Mobius.
Could I activate Scapegoat and then Torrential Tribute to destroy Mobius and have token on the field ? Or might I activate Torrential at the exact trigger and so activating Scapegoat becomes useless because they would be destroy by the Torrential?
 
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I'm not nit-picking or anything, I just don't see what you mean. Can you give examples of a Counter Trap (or counter effect for that matter) that doesn't need to be directly following the thing it counters (Negate Attack anomoliously accepted)?
 
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But that leads right back to the "pass, pass" argument. If I summon a monster, and do not use turn player priority to activate any effects, and my opponent does nothing as well, is the timing still correct for Torrential Tribute?

If the last thing to occur was a Summon (and I do not agree that after 2 passes the timing is correct, but I will enforce it if it is Officially stated so), and no Spell or Trap Cards have resolved, then why is the timing not correct for Solemn Judgment to negate the summon? What is it that makes the timing for Solemn Judgment and Horn of heaven one way, but 2 passes on priority another?

By definition of Steve's explanation of Exiled force and solemn judgment, the monster should be successfully summoned if solemn judgment is NOT the first card in a response, so, if a chain is created without a solemn judgment type effect, then the monster must be considered "summoned" for all intents and purposes.

If two players pass on priority, then I should be able to then come back and activate Solemn judgment as well, if I can still activate Torrential Tribute.
 
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Skey, yeah. I was asking DJ to give one (or more) example outside of Negate Attack.....

Woo, I agree with you, and don't like it either (as I believe that once both players pass, it should be time to move on unabaited, but that was argued elsewhere). The original issue is one of chaining, though.

Point of clarification, though, speaking of double passes on a summon....If TP Summons a monster and NTP does not, immediately, activate their Solemn Judgement, in order for TP to even have a priority to pass on, the Monster will have to be considered summmoned. Therefore, once TP passes on his priority (or is asked to), the last thing to have occurred is no longer an attempt to summon a monster, but the successful summon of a monster. I suppose you could phrase the question, "If you should successfully summon that monster, do you intend to use your priority?" But then TP can say, "Wait and see. Do you negate it's summon or not?" "No." "Then I pass on my priority, the monster is summoned." Now you can Torrential or Bottomless, or whatever, but (again) in order for TP to even have a priority to pass on, the monster's summon must be successful.
 
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Not feeling well at the moment. So thoughts might not come out right. But I should point ou that the event of a summon and the event of an attack may share similarities, but are still completely different things. The rules are goingot be differnt for both of them.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
But that leads right back to the "pass, pass" argument. If I summon a monster, and do not use turn player priority to activate any effects, and my opponent does nothing as well, is the timing still correct for Torrential Tribute?

If the last thing to occur was a Summon (and I do not agree that after 2 passes the timing is correct, but I will enforce it if it is Officially stated so), and no Spell or Trap Cards have resolved, then why is the timing not correct for Solemn Judgment to negate the summon? What is it that makes the timing for Solemn Judgment and Horn of heaven one way, but 2 passes on priority another?

By definition of Steve's explanation of Exiled force and solemn judgment, the monster should be successfully summoned if solemn judgment is NOT the first card in a response, so, if a chain is created without a solemn judgment type effect, then the monster must be considered "summoned" for all intents and purposes.

If two players pass on priority, then I should be able to then come back and activate Solemn judgment as well, if I can still activate Torrential Tribute.
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This goes back to the "timing" for a summon negator. This has been done to death and really doesn't need to be brought back up as it has been firmly established that the timing is not the same for Horn of Heaven and for Bottomless Trap Hole. The negator is activated "before" the summon is considered "successful", Bottomless Trap Hole is activated "after" the summon is considered "successful".

I am leaning towards agreement with YGO DOC on this. As I see it the summon negators are response to event cards, instead of negate an effect Counter Traps. Just like Negate Attack is a response to attack declaration. Nobody would ever question Mirror Force still being able to be activated later in a chain. The same is true for Negate Attack. It is negating an event, it of course must be in the proper window for the response chain, but there is no restriction requiring it to be "directly chained". I'd have to say the same would be true of the summon negators as they are also negating an event (the summon). Since the window is only open and available for activating a summon negator it would not be a stretch to use more than one to negate the same event as the timing would still be correct.

Let's say I tribute summon my Summoned Skull, my opponent activates Forced Back to return it to my hand, is there any reason why I couldn't activate my own Horn of Heaven to send my Summoned Skull to the graveyard instead of having it returned to my hand?
 
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anthonyj said:
Let's say I tribute summon my Summoned Skull, my opponent activates Forced Back to return it to my hand, is there any reason why I couldn't activate my own Horn of Heaven to send my Summoned Skull to the graveyard instead of having it returned to my hand?
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How about the fact the monster isn't considered to be 'on the field' for starters..lol.
 
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I believe he's trying to negate Summon Skull's summon with Horn of Heaven, thereby placing him in the Graveyard instead of having him returned to his hand by Forced Back. Which I believe is still possible.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
I believe he's trying to negate Summon Skull's summon with Horn of Heaven, thereby placing him in the Graveyard instead of having him returned to his hand by Forced Back. Which I believe is still possible.
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Horn of Heaven has always been ruled using the general properties of a Counter Trap... that being that it must be activated in "direct-response" to the action it is attemping to counter. In this case Forced Back would be "cutting in" so it's not possible to chain Horn of Heaven because the timing was used by Forced Back.

Only Counter Traps that would counter Forced Back could be used at that time.

Negate Attack is a "patch" ruling designed to give it more playability, since the Turn Player always gets Priority first at an Attack Declaration, and it is activated during the actual Attack Response Chain. Horn of Heaven does not have the same limitation, and is given a special window prior to the Summon Response.

The ruling for Negate Attack should never be compared to any other Counter Trap... don't get confused. Unless they put out official mechanics on this, stating that non-spell speed negators can be activated at any point along a chain and not require direct response.
 
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I've still yet to see, though, where exactly it's ruled that immediately preceding the summon is its only window.Chains, there seems to be plenty of info. Events, there only seems to be that one.
 
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novastar said:
...Negate Attack is a "patch" ruling designed to give it more playability, since the Turn Player always gets Priority first at an Attack Declaration, and it is activated during the actual Attack Response Chain. Horn of Heaven does not have the same limitation, and is given a special window prior to the Summon Response.

The ruling for Negate Attack should never be compared to any other Counter Trap... don't get confused. Unless they put out official mechanics on this, stating that non-spell speed negators can be activated at any point along a chain and not require direct response.
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Ahh, thanks Novastar! Your exception to the rule makes sense, since the turn player always has priority to put an effect on chain first after the attack declaration.

My next question then is: Who has priority for summon negation? The Non-turn player or still the turn player? (Summon negation, not to be confused with the summon response window)

Can a simple chain such as NTP activates "Horn of Heaven" and TP chains "Forced Back" because "MacroCosmos" is on the Field and TP wants to keep the monster in his Hand as opposed to removed from play be allowed?

With your statement and my recent research with UDE, I am waivering on what I said earlier with "Horn of Heaven" or "Forced Back"; however, I am told to wait for what Konami says.

doc
 
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So basically it sounds as if the non turn player activates Forced Back, and the turn player would rather have his card destroyed, than to go back to hand, he cant negate his own summon, and I really dont see why not.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
So basically it sounds as if the non turn player activates Forced Back, and the turn player would rather have his card destroyed, than to go back to hand, he cant negate his own summon, and I really dont see why not.
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It's not a matter of whether the TP can or cannot negate his/her own summon, in reality they can.

The problem lies with the fact that the timing for Horn of Heaven is incorrect.

My next question then is: Who has priority for summon negation? The Non-turn player or still the turn player? (Summon negation, not to be confused with the summon response window)
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It's a good question, and one i'm not 100% sure on, i've always believed it was the Opponent (or NTP) responds first according to traditional rules.

I absolutely do realize that there are holes in this, but this has never been viewed as a fully functioning chain point just a special negation window for summons. That is generally how they have ruled it, of course Konami has never clarified.

It is definately quite possible that Konami intends to change the rules on certain Counter Traps allowing this flexibility, but until i see official mechanics on this or a general official ruling outlining which Counter Traps can do this i see Negate Attack as an isolated case.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
I've still yet to see, though, where exactly it's ruled that immediately preceding the summon is its only window.Chains, there seems to be plenty of info. Events, there only seems to be that one.
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Ok:

"[Re: Royal Oppression] There are basically 2 ways to Special Summon a monster. The first way is with a Spell Card like "Monster Reborn", a Trap Card like "Call of the Haunted", or an Effect Monster like "Magical Scientist". The second way is built in to the monster, and Special Summons it without activating an effect, such as "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning" or "Dark Necrofear". "Royal Oppression" can negate both of these types of Special Summon. In the first case, you chain the activation of "Royal Oppression"'s effect to the activation of the Spell, Trap, or Monster Card's effect, and negate the effect. In the second case, right before the monster is Special Summoned, you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" to negate the Special Summon (the same procedure that you use for "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment")."

Seems clear to me.

It is a seperation of Summon Declaration and Summon Success. I personally believe that the problem lies soley in the fact that they continue to rule summons (from hand) as non-spell speed actions. If they were to make it a chainable effect it would solve many issues and make it easier to understand.
 
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