Multiple Chains in the Battle Phase

J

Judicator

The Man in Room V
I know theres a pretty long thread about this, but theres something bothering me...

Say if an opponent's Monster attacks me, I use Magic Cylinder to attempt to negate the attack, can I also chain Mirror Force, assuming opponent passes their ability to chain to cylinder,to Cylinder to provide a "double" layer of trap protection? If so, would the chain just resolve normally?

I am asking because it strikes me as Mirror Force missed its chance to respond to the attack...
 
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Actually in his scenario, it is a perfectly allowable chain since it is in a chain and it is in response to the attack. Of course the order matters so given the way he did it:

Chain Link 1: Magic Cylinder
Chain Link 2: Mirror Force

Resolution
Mirror Force destroys all attack position monsters
Magic Cylinder would then inflict damage, but since the attacking monster is no longer on the field, it does 0 damage.

Now, if you switched the order (Mirror Force first then Magic Cylinder), then MC would inflict the damage (since the monster is still on the field) and then MF destroyes all the attack position monsters.
 
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Actually, Magic Cylinder and Mirror Force both have the same activation requirements. Remember though that Declaring an Attack has the same kind of Odd Chain as Summoning a Monster. The first chain after the attack is declared will let you get away with weird things. Assume your opponent has nothing to chain with and declares an attack with his BLS-EotB. This is a valid chain:

Mirror Force
Dark Mirror Force
Magic Cylinder
Draining Shield
Draining Shield

Why? Because all those cards can be activated in response to an attack and that was the last thing to occur. Once the initial chain resolves, you wouldn't be able to activate any of them until the next attack is declared (but Waboku or Gravity Bind would be legal activations in a new chain). Odd yes, but as I said, so is the response chain for summons.
 
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densetsu_x said:
Actually, Magic Cylinder and Mirror Force both have the same activation requirements. Remember though that Declaring an Attack has the same kind of Odd Chain as Summoning a Monster. The first chain after the attack is declared will let you get away with weird things. Assume your opponent has nothing to chain with and declares an attack with his BLS-EotB. This is a valid chain:

Mirror Force
Dark Mirror Force
Magic Cylinder
Draining Shield
Draining Shield

Why? Because all those cards can be activated in response to an attack and that was the last thing to occur. Once the initial chain resolves, you wouldn't be able to activate any of them until the next attack is declared (but Waboku or Gravity Bind would be legal activations in a new chain). Odd yes, but as I said, so is the response chain for summons.
Click to expand...

Really? I had always thought (and please correct me if I'm wrong... I have to learn these things somehow, right?) that cards like Mirror Force or Dark Mirror Force would have to be the first activation in a chain, since they state that they can only be activated at the time the attack is declared.

Wouldn't the activation of another Trap card in between the declaration of the attack and the (attempted) Mirror Force, etc., make the activation timing incorrect, thus preventing chains like what you just demonstrated?
 
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For cylinder, Mirror Force, etc. the last action must be an attack declaration. In the response chain to the attack declaration, activation of other effects in the chain does not change the fact that the last thing to have happened was an attack declaration. So it will not matter in an activation legality sense which order you activate cylinder or Mirror Force or whatever (but it will in terms of which is the better order for doing the most damage). When the response chain resolves, thats when the last action changes to become resolution of said chain.
It also does not matter that either of those 2 will negate the attack. Because those cards were activated legally, they will resolve as much as possible, in this case, destroying or doing damage and negating the attack. It will not matter that the attack may already be negated, as the resolution is not dependent on there still being an attack.
 
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Wow this is new to me, I was sure that it was not possible to do such a thing legally but I guess I was wrong. I will keep that in mind for later days. Because I might just bust that out on someone for fun one day since I can actually back up proof of being able to do it.
 
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It didn't use to be legal

Or rather, it used to be that no one was clear on the subject of responding and chaining to an attack multiple times. It was only earlier this year that the rules for this were more clearly explained by Kevin Tewart.

Because I might just bust that out on someone for fun one day since I can actually back up proof of being able to do it.
Click to expand...

I always find that to be a messy way of interrupting the duel. Opponents tend to think that a rule just "busted" out in the middle of a duel is a way for someone to weasel their way out of a predicament. At the beginning of my own tournament, when the judge asks for questions, I now put it to them on how they would rule basic mechanics like that. That way everyone I play against isnt going to whine about me trying to cheat them.
 
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squid said:
It didn't use to be legal

Or rather, it used to be that no one was clear on the subject of responding and chaining to an attack multiple times. It was only earlier this year that the rules for this were more clearly explained by Kevin Tewart.



I always find that to be a messy way of interrupting the duel. Opponents tend to think that a rule just "busted" out in the middle of a duel is a way for someone to weasel their way out of a predicament. At the beginning of my own tournament, when the judge asks for questions, I now put it to them on how they would rule basic mechanics like that. That way everyone I play against isnt going to whine about me trying to cheat them.
Click to expand...


Since LON came out in the US it stated on yugioh-card.com that you could chain Mirror Force and Magic Cylinder on each other...
 
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OK. I think I understand now...

I'd just like to clarify one thnig, if I may. I never was arguing [against] using Mirror Force with Magic Cylinder. I never saw any problem with that chain, since Magic Cylinder doesn't require that an attack was the last thing to happen, in order to activate it.

So just to double check, the activation of a trap card in chain to the declaration of an attack does not interrupt the correct activation timing of traps that can only be activated when the opponent declares an attack?
 
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Magic Cylinder DOES require an Attack to be declared in order to be activated (just like Mirror Force). However, declaring an attack doesn't have a spell speed so the response chain alows you to have some wacky chains. So yes, in response to the attack you can chain multiple cards so long as it is the immediate chain right after the attack is declared.

Note it can be "interrupted" to as long as the last action to occur is the attack. So this would be a legal chain:

Player A declares an attack with "Gemini Elf"
Player B activates Mirror Force
Player A chains Gravity Bind
Player B chains Magic Cylinder
Player A chains Mystical Space Typhoon targeting a face down card
Player B chains the face down card Enchanted Javelin.

Resolution:
Player B gains 1900 life points (from Enchanted Javelin)
MST destroys Enchanted Javelin
Player A takes 1900 damage (from Magic Cylinder)
Gravity Bind activates
All attack position monsters on Player A's side is destroyed.

All clear now? Good! Class dismissed!

(Couldn't resist)
 
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densetsu_x said:
Magic Cylinder DOES require an Attack to be declared in order to be activated (just like Mirror Force).
Click to expand...
Yes, but Magic Cylinder does not require the declaration of the attack to be the last thing to have happened...


densetsu_x said:
However, declaring an attack doesn't have a spell speed so the response chain alows you to have some wacky chains. So yes, in response to the attack you can chain multiple cards so long as it is the immediate chain right after the attack is declared.

Note it can be "interrupted" to as long as the last action to occur is the attack. So this would be a legal chain:

Player A declares an attack with "Gemini Elf"
Player B activates Mirror Force
Player A chains Gravity Bind
Player B chains Magic Cylinder
Player A chains Mystical Space Typhoon targeting a face down card
Player B chains the face down card Enchanted Javelin.

Resolution:
Player B gains 1900 life points (from Enchanted Javelin)
MST destroys Enchanted Javelin
Player A takes 1900 damage (from Magic Cylinder)
Gravity Bind activates
All attack position monsters on Player A's side is destroyed.

All clear now? Good! Class dismissed!

(Couldn't resist)
Click to expand...

What I mean is, if someone wanted to activate both Mirror Force and say, Dark Mirror Force in the same chain, that would be legal, right?
 
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Yes it does, and yes it does, but the declaration of the attack must be the LAST SUCCESSFUL event to resolve, and as such, the chain hasn't resolved yet, so activation conditions are still correct.

-chaosruler
 
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The thing that's helped me out the most with these types of things is this.

Quit using the word 'occur' and start using the word 'resolve'.

That's what is giving everybody fits and causing the confusion.

So the scenario could be this: (stealing from d_x)
Player A declares an attack with "Gemini Elf". This is the last event to successfully RESOLVE at this point!
Player B activates "Mirror Force" (in response to the attack declaration).
Player A chains "Gravity Bind". (valid because of no activation restrictions)
Player B chains "Magic Cylinder". (valid because it's looking for the last thing to have RESOLVED, not the last thing to have OCCURRED.)
Player A chains "Mystical Space Typhoon" targeting a face down card. (valid because of no activation restrictions)
Player B chains the face down card "Enchanted Javelin". (valid because it's looking for the last thing to have RESOLVED, not the last thing to have OCCURRED.)

Resolution:
Player B gains 1900 life points (from "Enchanted Javelin")
MST destroys "Enchanted Javelin"
Player A takes 1900 damage (from "Magic Cylinder")
"Gravity Bind" activates
All attack position monsters on Player A's side is destroyed.


Help any better?
 
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