I know that if I flip summon a sangan and my opponent plays solemn judgement I cannot search the monster, even if it was set on the field before, it is considered sent to the graveyard from the hand...so if I flip night assailant and its summon is negated, can I get a flip effect monster from the Graveyard?
night assailant Q
- Thread starter NLFW
- Start date
Kyhotae said:
I have to suppose that you mean the monster is "considered" to have not been on the field because it was not successfully summoned. Which is fine and well and good as far as "did the continuous effect have the opportunity to turn on". But the monster card itself physically was considered where by the game mechanics? If the monster was still in the hand then it would be sent from the hand, if it was on the field but not considered successfully summoned it would be sent "physically" from the field. And in the case of a flip summon, the monster was physically on the field at least for a turn prior to being flip summoned. So it was on the field, but now it is not being sent to the graveyard from the field.
The question is simply is there a transitional point between the hand and the field where the monster is when it is negated so as to not be either in the hand or on the field. And yes, it does have to be one or the other at least until a third option has been defined.
Over thinking? By your logic we should just ignore it. But that creates questions that cannot be answered. You want me to ignore the man behind the curtain when he's the guy with my money.Kyhotae said:
If the card is not on your field and not in your hand then where is it? When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable it may seem must be the truth. By your logic, one must illuminate everything and remain with nothing. Which is impossible. When you eliminate possibilities you are left with probabilities.
If we know where it is not then one must know where it must be. If I'm home and I'm not in the bedroom, the bathroom, the living room the closet or the attic, and the only other place I can be and still be in the house is the kitchen then I must be in the kitchen. I can't be in the house and be nowhere. The game functions on these principles. If it's not in the hand or the Graveyard, then it must be someplace else, even if it's an undefined place. You cannot just pretend that it isn't there.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
masterwoo0 said:
Right, it definitely wasn't sent from a place called nowhere, but:
Negation cards have the ability to manipulate time.
The whole event of the card being moved from place to place is being erased from history.
So where it ends up is where it is now, and where it was is where it had been, but there's no evidence of it ever moving.
It wasn't sent from nowhere, it wasn't sent at all.
Simple for 4 dimensional thinking.
Yeah, simple. But I'm afraid I only think in 3. The negation of an effect doesn't neccessarily mean the the reversal of history. Only the reversal of an event. Undoing a event in time doesn't mean that time itself was undone.DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Digital Jedi said:
The negation of the Activation of something definitely has to erase history.
You can't negate something that's already happened if you don't reach back in time.
Then why does negation of an attack, not negate the registration of it?
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Digital Jedi said:
Because the card only erased the part about the attack it missed erasing the time where the attack was registered.
(Just like you don't negate the cost to activate a card.)
Then it sounds more like a case of buying a product "as is" then it does actual time revocation. If I buy a TV and trip on the door jamb when I get it home and the TV smashes all over the floor, it's "as if" I never purchased a TV, even though I'm not getting my money back. No time manipulation involved.
Yu-Gi-Oh! follows linear patterns. When an event is negated it's "as if" it never happened, but only in the payoff, not in the payment. Likewise, a card goes from here to there, and must go from here to there to satisfy the linear conditions of the game. Otherwise game play would be an exercise in metaphysics, which it isn't. The game is life, death, rebirth. (OKay. thematic metaphysics, not actual metaphysics)
A summon is as linear as you can get. From the hand to the field. From face-down to face-up. From here to there. Nothing originates "from out of nowhere" as common as the expression may be. It is also odd for it to be here, then not be here and be there, without a linear path to designate how it got there. It's like saying I went to the bathroom, but didn't go there. Word games.
Yu-Gi-Oh! follows linear patterns. When an event is negated it's "as if" it never happened, but only in the payoff, not in the payment. Likewise, a card goes from here to there, and must go from here to there to satisfy the linear conditions of the game. Otherwise game play would be an exercise in metaphysics, which it isn't. The game is life, death, rebirth. (OKay. thematic metaphysics, not actual metaphysics)
A summon is as linear as you can get. From the hand to the field. From face-down to face-up. From here to there. Nothing originates "from out of nowhere" as common as the expression may be. It is also odd for it to be here, then not be here and be there, without a linear path to designate how it got there. It's like saying I went to the bathroom, but didn't go there. Word games.
John Danker
Administrator
The thing reason I said it had larger ramificiations is that this....before when the question was regarding Sangan / Witch it didn't really matter...the flip summon was negated, it went to the graveyard w/o effect...so be it. If we asked about it then being sent from the hand it still didn't matter, it could be answered that it's irrelavant.
Now with Night Assialant if an answer is given that it doesn't get the discard effect....then it's admitance that it wasn't on the field and it wasn't in the hand.....and as stated, that opens up a can of worms for the rules makers.
This is likely to never be answered with a reason..I think we can all agree that Night Assailant won't get it's discard effect and I'm sure that if answered on the judge's board we'll recieve that answer....but I'm willing to bet we'll never get an explination.....it's going to be another BKSS for eternity.
Now with Night Assialant if an answer is given that it doesn't get the discard effect....then it's admitance that it wasn't on the field and it wasn't in the hand.....and as stated, that opens up a can of worms for the rules makers.
This is likely to never be answered with a reason..I think we can all agree that Night Assailant won't get it's discard effect and I'm sure that if answered on the judge's board we'll recieve that answer....but I'm willing to bet we'll never get an explination.....it's going to be another BKSS for eternity.
Just so everybody 'understands' where the confusion comes from....
This is just one of the issues that caused the whole 'limbo' thing last year....lol.
This quite clearly states, the card is NOT in your hand.
This quite clearly IMPLIES the card is NOT on the field.
This is just one of the issues that caused the whole 'limbo' thing last year....lol.
Electric Snake! Ack! Is that ruling still on the books!? I always hated that ruling. Even IF Solemn Judgment could cause a monster to go from your hand to the Graveyard, Electric Snake has to be DISCARDED to get it's effect, so it wouldn't get its effect regardless. Just like a Dark Worlder. <sigh>
Not exactly. If I'm between rooms, I'm in both, if even for a moment. Transition of matter dictates that. If I'm between rooms, I'm leaving one to enter another. Either way, linear progression. From one place to another. I have to have come from somewhere to now be here. In order to "go the Graveyard" I have to have a stating point to begin my journey.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
The bottomline is, if you have a 40 card Deck, every one of those cards has a place to go when they are drawn, picked up, discarded, sent, destroyed, removed, whatever... And they all started from "somewhere" before they went "someplace".
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
You probably didnt do so well in math, did you?Kyhotae said:
Yugioh is not creating magic everytime you pick up a card. Cards just don't "go somewhere" without having a origin. If a card is not in your hand, it's either in your
Main Deck
Fusion Deck
Side Deck
Graveyard
Removed from Play
Field
Binder
Deck Box
Home
etc...
If a card was summoned to the field, and the summon negated (this is for those people that will ask, "Why do you get Sangan's effect face-down?"), the card was sent "from the field" on the basis that it was never summoned "to the field".
A card sent to the Graveyard on the basis that it was never summoned "to the field", will not activate any effects that would have normally come with being sent from the Field.
It cant be sent from hand, because a summon was attempted. When you attempt to send a card to the Graveyard from hand, is it ever called a "Summon"?
I have come to the conclusion that you are one of those type of people that argue every call at a tournament regardless of whether you know you are clearly wrong, just for the sake of sheer pleasure in doing it.
You know that there is no way your logic can be accepted, but that doesnt prevent you from trying to (how did you say it on the last thread...)
"Provide an answer without proof"
Argghh! Another one of those right rulings with the wrong reason situations. This is why Konami doesn't like UDE to expand on answers because they get a little information and go the wrong direction with it. Just like Skill Drain vs. Exiled Force. The answer is correct that Electric Snake will not get it's effect. But the reason given doesn't even make sense with the question.
Kyhotae- You seem to have a firm conviction that you understand the game and mechanics yet you keep getting proven wrong again and again. I would make a suggestion that before you enter every single thread with a loud pronouncement that everybody else is wrong you might try an experiment. Write out a basic guideline of how to play the game. Go into as much detail on game mechanics as you can and post it here to get critique on how well it covers things. If you don't get written documentable proof that more than 50% of what you write down is absolutely irrefutably in error and in need of being corrected I will be shocked and amazed.
There are many great resources for reading up on the game mechanics of this game. You really should consider reading some of them.
Yes, and where would that be exactly?Kyhotae said:
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Digital Jedi said:
So you're in the living room. The you go to the bathroom.
Now while you're in the bathroom it ceases to ever have existed, and you find yourself outside of the house.
Did you go from the living room to outside? No,.
Did you go from the bathroom to outside? What is the bathroom? It never existed.
You're just outside.
--------
"¢ The effect of "Spell Absorption" is applied when the Spell Card is activated. You cannot chain to this effect. The effect is applied immediately. For example, when activating "Tribute to The Doomed" while "Spell Absorption" is on the field: (1) pay the cost by discarding a card, (2) activate "Tribute to The Doomed", (3) your Life Points increase for "Spell Absorption", (4) check for chaining and resolve "Tribute to The Doomed".
"¢ If the activation of a Spell Card is negated by "Magic Jammer", etc., then you will not gain Life Points for "Spell Absorption".