Oooh... Here's an interesting question...

J

Jason_C

Banned
This one just occurred to me as a result of the thread about threatening roar, where cropz pointed out that you can activate it when the opponent intends to exit Main Phase 1. Here's my question:

What is the exact timing window for determining if a Battle Phase will be conducted or not?

Example:

Enter Main Phase 1, P1 elects to kick it off by summoning Gemini Elf.

Response window, both players pass.

Non-responsive window, P1 passes, AKA declares his wish to exit Main Phase 1. At this point, does he say if he intends to conduct a Batte Phase? Or does he wait until AFTER P2 has passed, where an infinitessimal timing window occurs to determine if there will be a Battle Phase?

And, if it is the former and not the latter, let's suppose the opponent did NOT pass. Let's suppose he activated something that CHANGED P1'S MIND about whether he wants a Battle Phase. Now what? Do we resolve the current chain, have another opportunity for response, and then repeat the process? Or is he bound to the decision previously made?

I'm inclined to believe an infinitessimal window occurs for this decision, to prevent the arguments that may occur if it were not for this window. But I wouldn't know.
 
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Both of you, slither and Tkwiget, have missed it completely. Don't worry, that's not an insult. After all, this IS too vague. But there's no way to put it concretely.

Slither: I'm not talking about a response window. I'm talking about a decision window. A window for that decision of phases. Not one for activation of effects.

Twiggy: I'm not talking about after you enter the battle phase, activating Threatening Roar. I'm talking about after TP declares his wish to exit MP, at what point does he declare what his NEXT phase will be?
 
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That I got, but someone mentioned Threatening Roar. Keep in mind, I'm not running completely 100% up to speed right now. So please forgive my slowness.

If the TP declares to end Main Phase 1 then Main Phase 1 is ended. TP has priority to respond to entering the newly entered game phase and then a possible Chain Block can be created.

So what's the problem??
 
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The problem is this.

Player 1 (turn player) has had enough and wants to end Main Phase 1.

Player 2 agrees, and Main Phase 1 is now in the Books.


Since they both have aGreed to leave Main Phase 1, where does, and when does, Player 1 have to state his intentions on which phase he wishes to enter since he has the option of going to either Battle Phase, or End Phase of turn?

That is the problem.

The turn player should not have to say, "I wish to end Main Phase 1 and go to my Battle Phase!"

At that point, Player 2 would be able to continue to activate effects in Main Phase 1 as he did not agree to end it, that may well be prevented from being activated in the Battle Phase with certain cards active, like Pitch-Black Warwolf.

Advantage should go to the turn player and not the opponent. He can still activate Trap Cards and Quick-Plays in the Start Step of the Battle Phase, so he isn't losing out on that opportunity. This is a tactical game, not a "Gentlemans" game. You dont go to Battle telling your Enemy where your forces are located, so why should you have to tell them something that that gives away tactical advantage?


Tkwiget said:
The transition of Main Phase 1 to Battle Phase with the opponent responding with Threatening Roar would initate that cards' activation location in the Start Step of the Battle Phase, which would result in the entire phase ending immediately.
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Not entirely true. You can still conduct a Battle Phase. You just cant attack. You can always go to your Battle Phase and not attack with eligible monsters, and still use effects that only activate in the Battle Phase, just to be able to enter Main Phase 2.
 
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Jason_C said:
Both of you, slither and Tkwiget, have missed it completely. Don't worry, that's not an insult. After all, this IS too vague. But there's no way to put it concretely.

Slither: I'm not talking about a response window. I'm talking about a decision window. A window for that decision of phases. Not one for activation of effects.

Twiggy: I'm not talking about after you enter the battle phase, activating Threatening Roar. I'm talking about after TP declares his wish to exit MP, at what point does he declare what his NEXT phase will be?
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I got what you said Jason, sorry for the "response window", couldn't find another expression, but the idea is the same. A "decision window" in this case needs to be addressed as soon as both players decide that MP1 can be ended.

I brought up Threatning Roar to the case, because of the fact that if the Turn Player doesn't make use of his decision window, and non-turn player activates Threatning Roar, then they very well can say that they will never enter the BP and move directly into the EP.

Why could this be a problem? anyone can say that Threatning Roar's activation is mearly a response to a Phase Ending.
 
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Twiggy: :p Dont' worry, we forgive your slowness :p If people didn't forgive slowness, I'd be dead.

Masterwoo0 just basically summed up what you were missing: That the key lies in whether or not the decision on what phase is next is simultaneous with the decision that the MP is over. Which it's not, because, you see, the decision to end the MP is a mutual decision of both players, whereas the decision on what phase is next is COMPLETELY controlled by the TP. So big difference.

Slither: HUH? How can a player "doesn't make use of his decision window"? The decision MUST be made. And there MUST be an exact point at which that decision is made. An exact timing for declaration of what will be the next phase.
 
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Reading in again, I think we both are talking about the exact same thing, but with different words. That's what I am saying, there MUST be a decision window, and it MUST be made as soon as both players decide the Phase is over.
 
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slither said:
Reading in again, I think we both are talking about the exact same thing, but with different words. That's what I am saying, there MUST be a decision window, and it MUST be made as soon as both players decide the Phase is over.
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Don't you love it when you suddenly realize you agree?
 
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It doesn't make sense to say that you first decide to end the Phase and THEN decide where you are going. It should be simultanious.

Something like:

"I'm ending my turn" or "I'm going to attack" indicating both an end of the MP1 and a declaration of where you intend to go... The opponent should know where you are going before agreeing to end the Phase...that makes sense.

Knowing whether the TP wants to attack or end the turn can affect the OP's decision, and he/she should not be forced to wait until the next Phase starts before being able to do something.

That is simply my feeling on it.
 
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There's only one reason why your opponent should "want" to know, and that is because he doesnt want to have to waste a Trap, Quick-Play, or Effect.

But it's no different than hesitating playing Waboku in the Draw or Standby Phase, and then watching your opponent summon Jinzo. You take a chance, and it either pays off, or, you lose the Gamble.

I dont have to tell my opponent if I am going to summon a monster before I enter Main Phase 1 or 2, I tell him once I enter it.

It's not cheating or cheap. There is only advantage to doing so, and the Turn Player always has the advantage. He has priority, he starts all chains, and he initiates the end of all Phases, to include resolution of effects at End Phase of turn. If that isnt inherent advantage, I dont know what is.

So why then, should he give away the one thing that he shouldnt have to do, when the next phase is optional after the Main Phase?

You dont say to your opponent, "I'm going to summon Mobius the Frost Monarch, and by the way, I'm going to use his effect also!" You wait until he is summoned, and then decide.

Tactical Advantage should not have to be something that is taken from the Turn Player.

If you tell your opponent what you plan to do when you leave Main Phase 1, all he is going to do is then activate an effect that would either prolong Main Phase 1 if he can, or remove your ability to do what you want to do in the Battle Phase, like "attack".

The statement, "He who hesitates is lost", fits well for the opponent. Play your hand, or go home.
 
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novastar said:
It doesn't make sense to say that you first decide to end the Phase and THEN decide where you are going. It should be simultanious.

Something like:

"I'm ending my turn" or "I'm going to attack" indicating both an end of the MP1 and a declaration of where you intend to go... The opponent should know where you are going before agreeing to end the Phase...that makes sense.

Knowing whether the TP wants to attack or end the turn can affect the OP's decision, and he/she should not be forced to wait until the next Phase starts before being able to do something.

That is simply my feeling on it.
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That's precisely why I mentioned Threatning Roar, by this time if my opponent directly says "Im going to attack" then he has already declared an attack which would make TR usless.

It can't be simultaneous, it has to follow an order, it has to follow a mechanic, otherwise everyone could just do as they please.
 
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So why then, should he give away the one thing that he shouldnt have to do, when the next phase is optional after the Main Phase?
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Because what you are suggesting is that there is a choice here that the opponent can somehow not react and agree to knowingly.... which completely goes against the event-response nature of the game itself.

You dont say to your opponent, "I'm going to summon Mobius the Frost Monarch, and by the way, I'm going to use his effect also!" You wait until he is summoned, and then decide.
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And this supports what i'm saying... whether the decisions are seperate or together, the opponent gets an opportunity to respond to it...there is always timing.

What you guys are suggesting is that there is no timing for the opponent to react to the decision of going to the Battle Phase or End Phase...i see that as inconsistant.

If you tell your opponent what you plan to do when you leave Main Phase 1, all he is going to do is then activate an effect that would either prolong Main Phase 1 if he can, or remove your ability to do what you want to do in the Battle Phase, like "attack".
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Right, and how is that somehow a foreign concept?

In my opinion that is exactly why he/she should be informed as to where things are going... and given an opportunity to agree or disagree to it.

The TP may have first dibbs, and depending on how you look at it, that might be an advantage or disadvantage... but the OP should always have an opportunity to counter or respond.

The statement, "He who hesitates is lost", fits well for the opponent. Play your hand, or go home.
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Completely disagree... timing is an essential part of YGO for sure...but this is not a game of you snooze, you loose.

Ultimately the TP has the ability to try and dictate the course of his/her turn, but the OP should always be allowed to react and change that destiny.

Anyway...just my thoughts on it.
 
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slither said:
That's precisely why I mentioned Threatning Roar, by this time if my opponent directly says "Im going to attack" then he has already declared an attack which would make TR usless.

It can't be simultaneous, it has to follow an order, it has to follow a mechanic, otherwise everyone could just do as they please.
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No, im not suggesting that "I'm going to attack" means attack declaration.

In the real world that is usually how people announce that they are exiting the MP1 and entering the Battle Phase.

Sloppy? yes...but real world nonetheless.

...and yes it definately can be simultanious...a lot of things happen simultaniously in YGO.
 
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I'm torn. You both make excellent arguments. However, I'm somehow still inclined to agree with Master. Here's why:

What you guys are suggesting is that there is no timing for the opponent to react to the decision of going to the Battle Phase or End Phase...i see that as inconsistant.
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I never thought I'd say this, but... the logic of timing doesn't apply here. Why? Because I don't see that the opponent deserves an opportunity to respond to the decision of what the next phase will be. I see that as the ONE thing in this game the opponent has NO control over. Period. TP decides what phase is next. OP must deal with it.
 
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I've got to side with Nova on this one.

Turn Player doesn't state "I wish to end Main Phase I".
Turn Player states "I wish to end Main Phase I to go into the Battle Phase/ or to go to the End Phase".

Now, understand I'm not stating how it is done. But rather what the formal way would be if everything were completely diagrammed and followed instead of rushing through things.

The Turn Player states they wish to end Main Phase I to go into the X Phase. Then the Non-Turn Player would have the opportunity to create a chain or agree to move into the chosen Phase. If a chain is created then obviously we go through rules of chaining, response chain, and then right back to that same point for the Turn Player to say "I wish to end Main Phase I and go into _____."

This would be formally correct. You don't end a Phase and then make a decision on where you are going next. There is no tiny window for these types of decisions. It flows as part of the natural progression of the game.
 
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So your stating I very well can Draw and immediately say im going to attack (given a monster is already on the field of course)?
 
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anthonyj said:
I've got to side with Nova on this one.

Turn Player doesn't state "I wish to end Main Phase I".
Turn Player states "I wish to end Main Phase I to go into the Battle Phase/ or to go to the End Phase".....
Click to expand...


I would say that normally that would be correct because each phase following up to your Battle Phase is directly linked to the next one.

1. Draw Phase is linked to Standby Phase.
2. Standby Phase is linked to Main Phase 1.
3. Battle Phase is linked to Main Phase 2.
4. Main Phase 2 is linked to End Phase.

The only Phase that is NOT linked directly is Main Phase 1 to Battle Phase, and that is because you do not have to enter your Battle Phase, so why would you have to tell your opponent whether you plan to "attack, or, end turn"?

That gives your opponent way too much information. That's why you dont have to make decisions on actions in Standby Phase until "before" you plan to end it.

I dont have to tell my opponent when I enter the Standby Phase that I am going to remove Messenger of Peace. I only have to tell him before I leave the Standby Phase. There must be a reason I am allowed this delay, other than the fact that I only have to resolve the cost payment at some point in time during the Standby Phase.

I dont have to tell my opponent that I am going to draw a card during the Draw Phase, because I dont "have" a choice unless an effect gives me the option, in which case, I can still enter the Draw Phase before making the decision.

Does that mean that I must give my opponent advance warning in the End Phase of his turn, to activate Drop Off or Time Seal?
 
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Let me point something out. 2 things, actually.

1. I want to end my main phase.

2. I want to proceed to my battle phase.

Those are two different statements, with different meanings. They are not mutually inclusive or exclusive. I can end my Main Phase, and then proceed to Battle phase or NOT. The two statements are, in effect, not connected. So why must they be made at the same time?
 
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