Oooh... Here's an interesting question...

[Jason_C]

This one just occurred to me as a result of the thread about threatening roar, where cropz pointed out that you can activate it when the opponent intends to exit Main Phase 1. Here's my question:

What is the exact timing window for determining if a Battle Phase will be conducted or not?

Example:

Enter Main Phase 1, P1 elects to kick it off by summoning Gemini Elf.

Response window, both players pass.

Non-responsive window, P1 passes, AKA declares his wish to exit Main Phase 1. At this point, does he say if he intends to conduct a Batte Phase? Or does he wait until AFTER P2 has passed, where an infinitessimal timing window occurs to determine if there will be a Battle Phase?

And, if it is the former and not the latter, let's suppose the opponent did NOT pass. Let's suppose he activated something that CHANGED P1'S MIND about whether he wants a Battle Phase. Now what? Do we resolve the current chain, have another opportunity for response, and then repeat the process? Or is he bound to the decision previously made?

I'm inclined to believe an infinitessimal window occurs for this decision, to prevent the arguments that may occur if it were not for this window. But I wouldn't know.

 

[novastar]

The only Phase that is NOT linked directly is Main Phase 1 to Battle Phase, and that is because you do not have to enter your Battle Phase, so why would you have to tell your opponent whether you plan to "attack, or, end turn"?

Why? ...because the MP1 and the MP2 are not seperate Phases...they are actually the same Phase split into 2, in order to encapsulate the BP. So you cannot end the "Main Phase" and then have a Battle Phase....because they are infact linked...the BP is seated directly inside the Main Phase.

The Main Phase creates a fork in the road...where you have 2 distinct path possibilities.

I dont have to tell my opponent that I am going to draw a card during the Draw Phase, because I dont "have" a choice unless an effect gives me the option, in which case, I can still enter the Draw Phase before making the decision.

Does that mean that I must give my opponent advance warning in the End Phase of his turn, to activate Drop-Off or Time Seal?

That is a completely seperate issue...like you said the draw is not optional and is an event, not a change of Phase/Step. As well, currently there is no chain point prior to the draw itself. So even if an effect would alter the draw...that still is the first thing you must immediately do...there is no pause.

However, IF they ever did decide to open it up and allow for a normal chain point (where SS2's could be activated normally), then yes, you would have to stop BEFORE you draw and accomodate for the chain point giving both you and your oppponent an opportunity to do something. Then after you both pass...you would proceed to, in a sense, declare and draw, similar to declaring an attack.

 

[novastar]

Let me point something out. 2 things, actually.

1. I want to end my main phase.

2. I want to proceed to my battle phase.

Those are two different statements, with different meanings. They are not mutually inclusive or exclusive. I can end my Main Phase, and then proceed to Battle phase or NOT. The two statements are, in effect, not connected. So why must they be made at the same time?

Because the Main Phase 1 & 2 are actually the same Phase encapsulating the Battle Phase.

Theoretically how can you close the very Phase that contains the BP, and then perform one?

I am just throwing theory out there...anthony should enjoy that

 

[Jason_C]

Because the Main Phase 1 & 2 are actually the same Phase encapsulating the Battle Phase.

How does philosophy change the point? We know that at some point, MP1 "breaks" and either there is a BP, or not.

<EDIT: Curse your edit>

<2nd EDIT: My edit > your edit, so nyeh>

 

[masterwoo0]

Well, I've exhausted my end of the debate. This is all still a point of view from all parties, rather than "absolute", so I defer to the Judge's List.

 

[novastar]

Also from before...

That would be like saying that after you Battle a monster, you must make a decision to attack again with another monster at the end of the Damage Step.

Isn't this exactly what it says in the Rulebook?

 

[masterwoo0]

Also from before...

Isn't this exactly what it says in the Rulebook?

What I meant was BEFORE you actually end the Damage Step.

"At the end of the Damage Step, I am going to return to the Battle Step."

I believe the proper sequence is, the Damage Step ends, then you reach the decision point

End Step, or return to Battle Step

Where you can then activate Quick-Plays and Traps "related to" the Battle Step, and not the End Step of the Battle Phase.

 

[novastar]

I believe the proper sequence is, the Damage Step ends, then you reach the decision point

End Step, or return to Battle Step

Sure... and how are those choices made?

- If you want to attack...you actually declare another attack
- If you want to end you declare that you want to end

With either choice...the opponent then gets to react to what ever choice the TP makes.

End Step, or return to Battle Step

Where you can then activate Quick-Plays and Traps "related to" the Battle Step, and not the End Step of the Battle Phase.

This has never been properly explained, so it's tough to judge how it works.

The way the Rulebook outlines it, you go back to the Battle Step by declaring another attack.

I of course dont really follow the Rulebook for actual mechanics myself, but since you wanted to use it the explain the Main Phase, we might as well keep it consistant.

 

[Tkwiget]

<returns with a much more collected mind and is feeling a lot better than yesterday>

One of the problems with this kind of issue is players don't announce when they're leaving and entering game phases. This is done to speed up game play obviously. However, I don't believe that there's any "window" at the end of a game phase at all.

The only thing I see that would create a chain block at the end of a game phase is if an effect is activated that can be chained too. Such as Helpoemer activating at the end of the Battle Phase. You most certainly can chain cards to the effect activation with Divine Wrath coming to mind.

There's only one thing I can really think of that would categorize it a period in which some kind of "window" opens up. This would be if the ending of a game phase is considered to be an event. If it isn't, then no "window" should be openned.

Those are just my thoughts. =/

Note: I'm looking at it strictly from a mechanical point of view.

 

[novastar]

Lets get out of the "window" idea here...people are really misunderstanding it.

They are actually just chain points (activation windows), some are non-response (no event timing) and some are response (event timing)... but putting that aside....

Bottom line, when the TP wishes and calls for the end of a Phase...the OP absolutely gets an opportunity to agree or disagree.

So how can they do that?

- Disgree: Activate an effect
- Agree: Pass and end Phase

That is the essense of an activation window for sure...in this case a non-response one... but the important point is that the Phase end has to be mutual before it ends.

Just so that i'm understood, i also believe that the call for the Phase end in the MP1 must also include the choice of where the TP wishes to go, the OP must agree to the whole thing.

 

[Tkwiget]

I wouldn't call them chain points or even a window. I'd call them more along the lines of activation points if they even exist at all.

I'm sure that we all agree that if an effect is activated at the end of a game phase that we can create a chain block then.

Is even effects like Helpoemer and Infinite Dismissal show that ending a game phase prove that it's an event that has an activation point for other cards?

Just throwing some ideas out into the wind. =P

 

[Jason_C]

No. They aren't chain points, they aren't activation points, they are WINDOWs. WINDOWs wherein something can happen. In this case, a decision can be made. And I repeat: I'm not talking about a chain point. I'm talking about a break, so a decision can be made. No activation or chaining involved.

 

[Tkwiget]

And then you argue that if there's a disagreement between the two players that cards can be activated. Don't you see what's wrong with that line of thinking? I don't want to seem rude or nothing, but your argument seems to contradict itself. The whole term use of "window" first was introduced on COG with the discussion of the Battle Phase mechanics. The same term shouldn't be loosely used in this case.

To me it would be that if there isn't any argument that the ending of a game phase is an event or not then there shouldn't be any "window" there. The OP can only activate his/her cards to an event that's created. Whether that be a monster summoning, declared attack, card activation, or entering a game phase, there shouldn't be any event (unless card effects are involved) created at the end of a game phase.

Helpoemer activates at the end of the Battle Phase - correct? Yes. Can you chain to the activation fo Helpoemer's effect? Yes, you can.

So is the ending of a game phase an event or not? Answer the question people.

 

[masterwoo0]

I said I was done with this debate, but...

No one is talking about creating an event.

It's nothing more being a Sprinter and running your 100 meter event and at the end, instead of running off to immediately go to the 200 meter, you put your hands on your Knees and take a DEEP breath and a small break to gather yourself.

Does that make it more "clear" what we are talking about?

No chain, no event, nothing more than a "break in time" to clear your thoughts before making your next move.

 

[Tkwiget]

Then at the end of any given game phase there shouldn't be any cards getting activated unless their being chained to a card effect. However, the effects could activate when entering a game phase. So why were you guys arguing if you could activate cards at the end of a game phase?

If no event is being created at the end of a game phase, then no chain block should be created without a card effect making it possible.

I think I said something along those lines when I first posted in this thread. Because of no event is being created then no activation point is created without an effect activating to create one. So this whole discussion and argument of being able to activate cards at the end of a game phase (excluding cards like Helpoemer) is completely wrong. No event = no chain block.

And to answer your question, yes I do get what you said. Just making it 100% clear that ending a game phase isn't an event in which an activation point is created, but excludes effects like Helpoemer.

=)

 

[Jason_C]

So why were you guys arguing if you could activate cards at the end of a game phase?

Forgive me for this Twiggy, but I'm getting a little tired... *deep breath*

WE WEREN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, got that out of my system. There has never been any argument about activating cards. We have been talking about making a decision. A break in the game, so it can be determined what phase is next.

"Infinitessimal" means infinitely small, of the lowest possible quantity that is positive. That's the purpose of bringing that word into this discussion. The window I'm proposing is infinitessimal. There's no room for activation. No room for chain points. There is room for one and ONLY ONE thing, and that is deciding what the next phase will be. Nothing can come before that decision and nothing can come after it, because the window is just big enough to capacitate the decision at hand, nothing more.

 

[Tkwiget]

Umm, why not just call it "phase transition"? At least that'd make more sense to someone.

 

[slither]

My only concern is this: how can someone just "assume" that a Phase has ended/begun whatever just by saying something like "I declare an attack", and this being understood by both players that MP1 has ended.

This would be like saying "Your turn" and both players assuming that the turn has officially ended without any concensus by both players.

 

[novastar]

The whole term use of "window" first was introduced on COG with the discussion of the Battle Phase mechanics. The same term shouldn't be loosely used in this case.

To me it would be that if there isn't any argument that the ending of a game phase is an event or not then there shouldn't be any "window" there. The OP can only activate his/her cards to an event that's created. Whether that be a monster summoning, declared attack, card activation, or entering a game phase, there shouldn't be any event (unless card effects are involved) created at the end of a game phase.

Helpoemer activates at the end of the Battle Phase - correct? Yes. Can you chain to the activation fo Helpoemer's effect? Yes, you can.

So is the ending of a game phase an event or not? Answer the question people.

First....none here created the term window, or response, non-response or what have you. These are terms that have long been around before Netrepâ„¢ was even in existance. They started being brought up and people took it and ran with it. The term "window" is simply refering to activations windows...a particular point where chains can be built, and the Chain Block is open. It is a visual way of representing it. Nothing official, but it has a lot of merit.

Essentially once a Phase has been decided upon and is ending, prior to the transition to the next Phase the "end of Phase" effects are resolved. Then when you enter a Phase, there is a brief moment where beginning of Phase effects occur. That should help to answer the Helpoemer question.

It's not 100% concrete... but the only thing i could see as an actual event would be the beginning of a Phase...but YGO seems to indicate the opposite from other games...and it's usually the "end of the Phase" that triggers these effects.

The flow of a Main Phase 1 seems to work like this:

Lets assume all the neccessary conditions are present to allow of the choices.

<MP1>

1.) {Beginning of Phase Effects}
*this happens automatically

2.) {Normal Chain} (Non-Response)
* TP is given Priority and has 4 choices
1. Normal (Tribute) or Flip Summon a monster
2. Activate an effect (SS1, SS2)
3. Go to Battle Phase
4. End Turn

If the TP chooses 3 or 4... the OP can:

1. Activate an effect
2. Pass and end current Phase

Assume the OP choose 2, THEN as you end the Phase...

3.) {End of Phase Effects}
*this happens automatically

</MP1>

I believe the effects such as Helpoemer would occur during the {End of Phase Effects} area, and since the Phase has already been decided, and whether chainable or not, once the effect is resolved...you must transition to the next Phase.

Now the earlier debate was about whether the choices 3 and 4 i included in the Normal Chain are chosen then or as part of the "end of Phase" proceedure after all the effect are resolved.

 

[anthonyj]

My only concern is this: how can someone just "assume" that a Phase has ended/begun whatever just by saying something like "I declare an attack", and this being understood by both players that MP1 has ended.

This would be like saying "Your turn" and both players assuming that the turn has officially ended without any concensus by both players.

In truly correct terms, you certainly can't. In "fast and dirty, how it happens at the table" terms, it happens all the time.

I'm a little puzzled by some of the things I'm hearing on this thread. Is there any dispute that:

1) Turn Player does not wish to continue with Main Phase 1 so he suggests ending the Phase and the opponent may activate a chain at that point?

2) That once that chain if one is activated has resolved there is a response window and following that you would go right back to the Turn Player suggesting Ending the Phase and once again the opponent would have the opportunity to activate a chain.

Sorry if I misunderstand your posts Twiget but I wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page with at least that much.

To be absolutely formal if you were following all possible etiquette you would be verbally stating "I enter my Draw Phase and draw my card." You could then choose to activate a Quickplay (set or in hand), a set trap, etc. Then once you have finished with whatever you were wanting to do in the Draw Phase you would again state verbally, "I wish to End my Draw Phase to proceed to Standby Phase." At this point the opponent can activate a set Quickplay or Trap, or may agree to end the Draw Phase and there you are in the Standby Phase.

This is the same for each phase as far as I understand it. "Passing Priority" as it is commonly referred to isn't a game term, you have the right to Summon a monster, activate an effect or whatever you choose but you don't ever get a "No, you go ahead and then I'll go." So if you enter Main Phase 1 and choose not to summon, activate an effect, set cards, or anything else and "Pass Priority" that would be formally verbally stated, "I wish to End Main Phase 1 and proceed to Battle Phase." Or "I wish to End Main Phase 1 and proceed to End Phase." At which time, of course, the opponent gets their chance to either activate a set Quickplay or Trap or agree to the ending of Main Phase 1 and proceeding to the Phase that was chosen by the Turn Player (and it should be noted that if the Turn Player did nothing to create a chain or response point during this Main Phase 1 this would be the First and possibly only opportunity to activate a Speed 2 before Main Phase 1 is over).

 

[slither]

In truly correct terms, you certainly can't. In "fast and dirty, how it happens at the table" terms, it happens all the time.

That's my whole point, yes we know that we all play amongst friends and family and we can just assume we understand what our opponents say, heck we can even go back and say "stop" before <whatever? i'll do this, it's understandable going into a friendly game and both players agreeing in what they do.

But the problem is that you can't go along those lines in a tournament. In my eyes the beggining/end of every Phase has to be aGreed by both players and this events have to be announced upon entering, upon choosing (MP1 going either to BP or EP), and upon exiting.