Optional Tigger Effects

J

John Danker

Administrator
Optional Trigger effects are something I've been meaning to do some studying up on but until yesterday never really got around to. Yes, I admit, I should be well versed in optional trigger effects already, it's a weakness I'll confess. The one question I still have left in my mind though is....

The actual activation point.

If I tribute summon for Mobius the Frost Monarch does his effect ACTIVATE when he's summoned or does it activate when I choose to use the effect?

The reason this is important is a scenario I've dreamed up (leave it to me to be a dreamer) ...but a concievable scenario.

P2 has an active Ultimate Offering on the field along with an attack position Spirit Reaper.

P1 has a set BTH and an attack position Gemini Elf.

P1 is in battle phase and declares an attack with Gemini Elf

P2 responds to the attack by activating the effect of Ultimate Offering, nothing is added to the chain.

P2 Now summons Mobius the Frost Monarch by tributing his Spirit Reaper.

Now the kicker....if after a summon priority always returns to the turn player then my original question comes into play.

If Mobius activates when it's summoned then all that is left is choosing...however, if the effect activates only after the turn player chooses to use the effect....and priority has passed to the turn player and turn player activates BTH, then P2 can't chain Mobius's effect because it's a spell speed 1.

Now you know how I got around to studying up on optional trigger effects <laffin>

Any help here?
 
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Honestly? I think this may be proof of why the status quo of priority is wrong.

But if we accept the laws given, then I'd say Mobius's effect is just on hold until after priority goes to the summoning player. Effects don't always activate the second they are triggered.
 
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Look at my question again TWiget, it's not the turn player who summoned Mobius in my scenario, it's the non-turn player via Ultimate Offering. The whole point to my question is on missed timing.

We know that cards such as Dark Magician of Chaos can miss their timing because they can't be activated in the middle of a resolving chain, why? Because you can't add it's effect into the middle of a resolving chain and by the time the chain is finished the timing is incorrect. My question stems from that, how can you activate (if the point of activation is choosing to use it and not the trigger of summoning) it's effect if you don't have priority to do so?
 
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Oh, I'm sorry about that. Then maybe this would be more accurate.. @_@

The Turn Player would have priority to respond to the summoning of Mobius the Frost Monarch with a Spell Speed 2 or higher effect. Such as in the example you gave John, the Turn Player could respond with Bottomless Trap Hole.

Either that or my memory of who has priority after a chain block resolves with the last thing happening being a monster summoned is very confused.

<breathes again>
 
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We debated this not that long ago...lol. This question was one of my questions...lol.

Priority shouldn't be a factor here. It's a triggered effect that happens in response to the successful Tribute Summon of the monster. The decision to activate the effect comes before anything else can be activated, IMHO. If the summoner chooses to activate, the opponent (or turn player in this case) can then respond. If they don't choose to activate, then Priority is immediately passed to the Turn Player due to the monster being summoned.
 
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Oh my God, I though I gor rid of Mobius rulings for today :p, in my eyes, as skey says, trigger is trigger (which is what i've been knocking myself out with this past few days), the choosing of what to do with the activated trigger is the only thing optional.
 
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I go back to my original question. Does the trigger activate the effect and all that is left is choosing to use it, or is the point of activation choosing to use the effect and the condition of the trigger just allows for activation.
 
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John Danker said:
I go back to my original question. Does the trigger activate the effect and all that is left is choosing to use it, or is the point of activation choosing to use the effect and the condition of the trigger just allows for activation.
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Personally, I believe the 1st statement. The effect is triggered automatically. The choice to use it is what is optional.
 
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The way how I think Mobius the Frost Monarch functions is that once the monster is summoned the Turn Player has priority to activate any Spell Speed 2 or higher effects.

So to answer your question, "The point of activation choosing to use the effect and the condition of the trigger just allows for activation." would be correct.
 
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When we look at the FAQ and read about optional trigger effects and missing the timing it says this.....

Missing the Timing - Optional Trigger Effects Added June 2005

Sometimes a Trigger Effect says that "when" a condition happens, you "can" activate its effect. In this case, you are only allowed to activate the effect when the condition being met was the last thing to happen in the game (activating cards & effects that haven't resolved yet doesn't count).

From the wording here it looks as through the second part of my statement holds true. <shrug> I'm still not convinced either way, though I tend to lean toward the activation point being choosing to use the effect and will rule so until I'm convinced otherwise.
 
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I was thinking something along those lines. Maybe my two below statements hold some valid points?

If Mobius the Frost Monarch is Tribute Summoned successfully and the Turn Player has to either activate Mobius the Frost Monarch, activate Spell Speed 2 or higher, or activate nothing.

If the Turn Player activates a Spell Speed 2 or higher effect, then he/she automatically forfeits the chance to activate Mobius the Frost Monarchs' effect because a Spell Speed 1 can't chain to a Spell Speed 2.
 
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John Danker said:
I go back to my original question. Does the trigger activate the effect and all that is left is choosing to use it, or is the point of activation choosing to use the effect and the condition of the trigger just allows for activation.
Click to expand...

In the case of Mobius as long as the summon was the last thing to happen, an optional trigger effect works the same way as a mandatory trigger effect.

Nothing else happens until the trigger effect is dealt with.

The game mechaninc of Priority has nothing to do with trigger effects, and you can find quotes saying the exact same thing on the Judge's list.
 
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man this is easy...

watch check this out ill seperate it so its easy to follow.
[we will start at the point were the opponent causes a replay]

alrighty the opponent decided to cause a replay and summoned out a creature.

You as the player with priority has a chance to respond. Unless the effect of the monster comming into play was a Continous or automatic effect. The opponent [whom caused a replay] doesnt have the chance to use their creatures effects or abilities untill you respond to the summon.

at this point the opponets creature is to late because 1. its not their turn, 2. their creature's ability is a Optional ability, it doesnt have to do it. :D

see its easy :D

well I find it easy becuase im used to playing Magic were the responce / stack is always a major factor.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
In the case of Mobius as long as the summon was the last thing to happen, an optional trigger effect works the same way as a mandatory trigger effect.

Nothing else happens until the trigger effect is dealt with.

The game mechaninc of Priority has nothing to do with trigger effects, and you can find quotes saying the exact same thing on the Judge's list.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I was trying to say!...lol...But couldn't figure out the right words!...lol.
 
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krazykidpsx said:
man this is easy...

watch check this out ill seperate it so its easy to follow.
[we will start at the point were the opponent causes a replay]

alrighty the opponent decided to cause a replay and summoned out a creature.

You as the player with priority has a chance to respond. Unless the effect of the monster comming into play was a Continous or automatic effect. The opponent [whom caused a replay] doesnt have the chance to use their creatures effects or abilities untill you respond to the summon.

at this point the opponets creature is to late because 1. its not their turn, 2. their creature's ability is a Optional ability, it doesnt have to do it. :D

see its easy :D

well I find it easy becuase im used to playing Magic were the responce / stack is always a major factor.
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But the effect in question is not an Ignition Effect that relies on Priority. The effect in question is a Triggered effect that doesn't rely on Priority. It's automatically triggered by the Tribute Summon and must be dealt with before any issues of Priority become involved.
 
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Hmm, this intrigues me, the use of "can" in establishes Mobius' as an optional effect, and able to miss the timing.

But we have the ruling:
If "Level Limit - Area B" is active and "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is successfully Tribute Summoned, "Level Limit - Area B" is a Continuous Spell Card so its effect is applied and the battle position of "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is changed to Defense Position. Then you can activate the effect of "Mobius the Frost Monarch".

However, if the effect was indeed optional, then by this point Mobius' has lost the opportunity to. Mobius' text is exactly the same as DMOC's, minus the extra option for it efect upon special summoning. Maybe I'm missing something there.

But that aside, I'm in the boat that the option must be presented to the controller of its effect if possible. Consider the following ruling:
When your "D.D. Warrior Lady" attacks "Wall of Illusion", if you activate her effect then "Wall of Illusion" is Step 1 of the chain, because it is mandatory, and "D.D. Warrior Lady" is Step 2 of the chain because it is an optional effect. The effect of "D.D. Warrior Lady" removes from play both monsters, then the effect of "Wall of Illusion" Disappears, since the attacking monster is no longer on the field.

D.D. Warrior Lady's effect is optional, but it still must be presented to the player during damage calculation, regardless if another effect must be resolved (such as the Wall's).

Now I now that this second ruling is during damage calculation, but then again, I think that contradicts itself because Wall....uh oh, brain crashed...must reboot.
 
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Ok, going off what Dillie-O stated...Let's look at these two rulings for "Mobius the Frost Monarch"
If "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is Tribute Summoned by the effect of "Ultimate Offering" in the middle of a chain (and is not the last step of the chain to resolve), then you have missed the timing on his effect and you cannot activate his effect to destroy 2 Spell or Trap Cards.
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This supports his 'missing the timing' statement.
The effect of "Stumbling" goes on a chain immediately after a monster is Summoned. As a mandatory Trigger Effect, "Stumbling" is always on the chain before optional Trigger Effects ("Mobius the Frost Monarch") or chained Spell & Trap Cards ("Trap Hole").
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This doesn't support the 'missing the timing' statement. This is stating that you can have the effect of "Mobius the Frost Monarch" as link 2 and it's still valid.

How, if it's supposed to miss the timing if it's not the last thing on the chain to resolve?
 
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The thing is this, <ill go back to a post I made in another site>, i've always though of a Trigger effect in different versions: optional and mandatory, they both will work the same when their trigger is "supposed" to trigger, meaning when the requirments are all correct.

The difference being that mandatory trigger effects rely in a single chain link as they have a mandatory condition it will resolve (if possible) regardless of the chain ladder.

Optional as the word states requires an interferance of "what" will be done, that's why it can't interrupt the chain.

But they both trigger as soon as their requirements have been met.
 
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