Optional Tigger Effects

[John Danker]

Optional Trigger effects are something I've been meaning to do some studying up on but until yesterday never really got around to. Yes, I admit, I should be well versed in optional trigger effects already, it's a weakness I'll confess. The one question I still have left in my mind though is....

The actual activation point.

If I tribute summon for Mobius the Frost Monarch does his effect ACTIVATE when he's summoned or does it activate when I choose to use the effect?

The reason this is important is a scenario I've dreamed up (leave it to me to be a dreamer) ...but a concievable scenario.

P2 has an active Ultimate Offering on the field along with an attack position Spirit Reaper.

P1 has a set BTH and an attack position Gemini Elf.

P1 is in battle phase and declares an attack with Gemini Elf

P2 responds to the attack by activating the effect of Ultimate Offering, nothing is added to the chain.

P2 Now summons Mobius the Frost Monarch by tributing his Spirit Reaper.

Now the kicker....if after a summon priority always returns to the turn player then my original question comes into play.

If Mobius activates when it's summoned then all that is left is choosing...however, if the effect activates only after the turn player chooses to use the effect....and priority has passed to the turn player and turn player activates BTH, then P2 can't chain Mobius's effect because it's a spell speed 1.

Now you know how I got around to studying up on optional trigger effects <laffin>

Any help here?

 

[krazykidpsx]

But the effect in question is not an Ignition Effect that relies on Priority. The effect in question is a Triggered effect that doesn't rely on Priority. It's automatically triggered by the Tribute Summon and must be dealt with before any issues of Priority become involved.

not neserellay true... remember if its your turn and you by chance froget to use mobius's effect, then you missed out.

what if instead of Gemini Elf there were a King Tiger Wanghu?

 

[Tkwiget]

The thing is this, <ill go back to a post I made in another site>, i've always though of a Trigger effect in different versions: optional and mandatory, they both will work the same when their trigger is "supposed" to trigger, meaning when the requirments are all correct.

The difference being that mandatory trigger effects rely in a single chain link as they have a mandatory condition it will resolve (if possible) regardless of the chain ladder.

Optional as the word states requires an interferance of "what" will be done, that's why it can't interrupt the chain.

But they both trigger as soon as their requirements have been met.

I'd just like to say that not only everything said in that quote is correct (well that I agree with anyway), but I'd like to add something to it as well.

Stumbling activates when a monster is summoned. This effect will not resolve until any possible chains to the effect is passed around. Stumbling activates in response to a monster being summoned.

Mobius the Frost Monarch can activate when and only when he is Tribute Summoned successfully.

The reason Stumbling doesn't cause Mobius the Frost Monarch to miss his timing is because both of the effects are being activated at the same time. So mandatory effects go first on the chain block and then optional effects.

Now changing Gemini Elf to King Tiger Wanghu doesn't even affect the original situation John posted up. Spirit Reaper would most likely be on the field before King Tiger Wanghu is or on the field in some way to bypass King Tiger Wanghus' effect.

 

[carlossilva]

I had also placed this question in the Priority thread. While I don't have a definite answer, there's something I would like to note:

If you summon a monster like Mobius or any other with an optional trigger and there is a mandatory trigger on the filed ( such as King Tiger Wanghu ), though the mandatory effect goes first on the chain, it doesn't prevent the activation of the optional effect ( which, if chosen, will then follow the general rules of SEGOC ).

This means optional trigger effects are not treated as a pure " choice to activate" on the part of the controller ( unlike Ignition effects, for example ). If this were the case then you would simply not be able to put them on a chain, for the same reason you can't chain any other SS1 effects.

So, it looks not as " it activates if you choose it" , but more like " it activates unless you choose not to do it".

If the same philosophy applies to the situation John placed, then I'd say in this case the opponent who summoned Mobius would still be able to use his effect if he wished. Turn Player would then, of course, have priority to chain other effects.

However, this might eventually not mean that an optional trigger is considered activated, no matter what its controller chooses. ( If it were to be considered that way, then I guess, for example, that one could Divine Wrath a just-summoned Mobius regardless of whether the player chose to activate his effect or not ).

Cheers

Carlos

 

[novastar]

Look at my question again TWiget, it's not the turn player who summoned Mobius in my scenario, it's the non-turn player via Ultimate Offering. The whole point to my question is on missed timing.

We know that cards such as Dark Magician of Chaos can miss their timing because they can't be activated in the middle of a resolving chain, why? Because you can't add it's effect into the middle of a resolving chain and by the time the chain is finished the timing is incorrect. My question stems from that, how can you activate (if the point of activation is choosing to use it and not the trigger of summoning) it's effect if you don't have priority to do so?

This has probably already been answered since i'm late to this.

The reason they miss timing is because, unlike normal Triggers, they must be in direct response to the event that triggers the effect.

Think of it in terms of Counter Traps and Multi-Triggers (most) they must directly respond, meaning right after, or timing is missed.

What helps me is to think of Optional Triggers, as the Spell Speed 1 little brother of Multi-Triggers from a timing point of view.

Hope that helps

 

[novastar]

This doesn't support the 'missing the timing' statement. This is stating that you can have the effect of "Mobius the Frost Monarch" as link 2 and it's still valid.

How, if it's supposed to miss the timing if it's not the last thing on the chain to resolve?

It doesn't miss timing...you are correct.

They are both triggering from the exact same event.

The order placement on the chain is simply due to rules of SEGOC. Technically they are activating at exactly the same time, to the same event...no missed timing.

As a general statement here for all, don't be fooled by the fact that you can choose to activate an Optional Trigger or not, it is still forcing activation just like any normal Trigger and shares the same characteristics as such.

 

[skey23]

You beat me to it!..I was just about to respond to your post above #24 and ask about that...lol.

 

[novastar]

Hmm, this intrigues me, the use of "can" in establishes Mobius' as an optional effect, and able to miss the timing.

But we have the ruling:
If "Level Limit - Area B" is active and "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is successfully Tribute Summoned, "Level Limit - Area B" is a Continuous Spell Card so its effect is applied and the battle position of "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is changed to Defense Position. Then you can activate the effect of "Mobius the Frost Monarch".

However, if the effect was indeed optional, then by this point Mobius' has lost the opportunity to. Mobius' text is exactly the same as DMOC's, minus the extra option for it efect upon special summoning. Maybe I'm missing something there.

That is actualy a very good observation.

It could be an inconsistancy, either with the ruling itself, or UDE's explaination of exactly how Optional Triggers work. It's also quite possible that LLAB having a Continuous Effect might have an effect on that outcome, as it is not a Battle Position change that is actually resolving...

It's feesable to think that the final Battle Position that a monster starts off in is part of the summoning, and includes Continuous Effects that alter that, similar to ATK/DEF modifiers... and thus part of the same event... so no missed timing.

How does that sound?

 

[novastar]

The game mechaninc of Priority has nothing to do with trigger effects, and you can find quotes saying the exact same thing on the Judge's list.

It does in terms of order of effects.

You don't use Priority to manually activate, but it still orders the TP Triggers first based on Turn Player Priority.

The Mobius+Stumbling scenario is as such because the Triggers themselves are different, but amongst like Triggers (mandatory or optional) the TP has first Priority.

In the end, the TP always activates first when 2 Triggers of the same type activate together, hense Priority.

 

[anthonyj]

Krazy- I'll have to disagree. Mobius is an optional effect, but optional effects don't mean that they can't be used unless you have Priority. This is yet another glaring problem with not having a formal definition of what priority is and is not.

Priority gives the Turn Player the right to begin a chain before the opponent. That statement seems simple enough. But we are talking about an effect that has been triggered and is offering the option to begin a chain if you choose to. This type of effect supercedes the basic state of Priority. If it were Breaker then it would automatically start a chain to receive his token and then the Turn Player would get the chance to respond. Since it is an optional effect the controller has the chance to determine whether that Triggered effect will be used (and begin a chain) or not (and if no chain was started then Priority would immediately revert to the Turn Player).

There is no "window" opened to use Mobius or another Speed 2. There is just the opportunity to use the optional trigger because the trigger has been primed. You push the button or you don't. Start a chain or don't.

 

[anthonyj]

It does in terms of order of effects.

You don't use Priority to manually activate, but it still orders the TP Triggers first based on Turn Player Priority.

The Mobius+Stumbling scenario is as such because the Triggers themselves are different, but amongst like Triggers (mandatory or optional) the TP has first Priority.

In the end, the TP always activates first when 2 Triggers of the same type activate together, hense Priority.

I do so enjoy Nova's disection of things. It always seems to help me come up with more useful examples. Let's replace the Spirit Reaper in John's original question with the Turn Player's Sangan that was previously Creature Swapped. When Ultimate Offering resolves Sangan is tributed (going to the Turn Player's Graveyard) and Mobius is summoned to the field. Turn Player (having priority) would have the right to choose whether or not to search for Sangan's effect and then the non-turn player (since this is a SEGOC) gets to choose whether to activate Mobius.

Now all I want to know is this: If the non-turn player had a set Divine Wrath could he chain it to Sangan's effect being activated? And would that mean he would have to pass on activating Mobius in order to have the timing to do so?

--Edit-- Oops should be Turn Player chooses what to search out with Sangan's effect since he is mandatory.

 

[novastar]

Now all I want to know is this: If the non-turn player had a set Divine Wrath could he chain it to Sangan's effect being activated? And would that mean he would have to pass on activating Mobius in order to have the timing to do so?

No, Divine Wrath cannot be used against Sangan in the case.

As a general rule of thumb, Trigger activation and placement on the chain block must always be completed before any player can manually activate effects.

So, Mobius' effect would be the only Wrath-able effect here.

 

[anthonyj]

No, Divine Wrath cannot be used against Sangan in the case.

As a general rule of thumb, Trigger activation and placement on the chain block must always be completed before any player can manually activate effects.

So, Mobius' effect would be the only Wrath-able effect here.

Are we sure about that? If Mobius is not activated he would not add to the chain block. That leaves Sangan as the last "thing to happen". I'm basing this line of thinking off of the DMOC vs. Magical Dimension ruling.

 

[novastar]

Are we sure about that? If Mobius is not activated he would not add to the chain block. That leaves Sangan as the last "thing to happen". I'm basing this line of thinking off of the DMOC vs. Magical Dimension ruling.

Trying to trick me?

Sorry, i assumed that the OP had actually chose to activate Mobius.

If the OP decided not to use Mobius, then yes, you could use DW on Sangan.

As far as the DMoC ruling, that does not apply here, because Sangan's activation does not change timing for Mobius...because they are actualy activating together, even though they are placed at different chain links. Plus activation, doesn't affect "event timing" the same way.

 

[Tkwiget]

The whole situation of Mobius and Sangan wasn't even structured properally. Also, Sangan's effect is mandatory and you will search your deck reguardless of having a monster with 1500 attack or not being contained in it.

In the case of Sangan being used as the monster for Mobius the Frost Monarchs' Tribute Summoning, the cards are placed in the chain block in proper order.

Mandatory effects go first then optional. Sangan is a mandatory effect and Mobius is an optional effect. So the chain block is as such.

Chain Link 1: Sangan
Chain Link 2: Mobius the Frost Monarch (assuming that the player activates the effect)

So based off of Mobius being activated or not is what determines if Divine Wrath will get to negate Sangans' effect or not.

Also I do realize Nova posted before me when I posted this up, which is why I've took the notion to use the "Preview Post" button to check if anyone has indeed posted before me. =P It kinda keeps me from looking like a moron. XD

 

[John Danker]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm not debating any of this....mind you, quite on the contrary...I'm taking it all in. The reason I posted in the first place is that I consider this topic my weakness and something I should have been well versed on some time ago.

 

[krazykidpsx]

I kinda posted something but at the time i did the connection droped [I was using wireless] and it kinda didnt post.

and i dont want to repeat my self except for the last part.

why not have skye23 post it up on the judges list?

lol

 

[skey23]

I'd love to! But I'm not sure the 'boys' on the list are too happy with me..lol. I've been a posting fiend these past few weeks (about 15 new questions) w/o a single response back. I'm afraid I may have overwhelmed them!...lol.

 

[krazykidpsx]

I'd love to! But I'm not sure the 'boys' on the list are too happy with me..lol. I've been a posting fiend these past few weeks (about 15 new questions) w/o a singe response back. I'm afraid I may have overwhelmed them!...lol.

Its their job.


I belive if it wasnt for you, they would be lazying around looking at more crappy promos to give the fellow players.

thank you Skye23 you do the comunity a big favor putting thouse guys to work. lol

 

[carlossilva]

That is actualy a very good observation.

It could be an inconsistancy, either with the ruling itself, or UDE's explaination of exactly how Optional Triggers work. It's also quite possible that LLAB having a Continuous Effect might have an effect on that outcome, as it is not a Battle Position change that is actually resolving...

It's feesable to think that the final Battle Position that a monster starts off in is part of the summoning, and includes Continuous Effects that alter that, similar to ATK/DEF modifiers... and thus part of the same event... so no missed timing.

How does that sound?

Just noticed this observation. It does sound like an inconsistency, especially since, by the FAQ:

If the triggering condition happened for an optional Trigger Effect, but something else has happened after that, then you have "missed the timing" and you cannot activate it. For example, this can happen if the optional Trigger Effect monster was Tributed for a Tribute Summon or to activate a card effect, or if the triggering condition happened in a chain and wasn't Chain Link 1, or if another card effect or game effect has happened since then.

LLAB will change a monster's position if he ever is in attack, not just when he's summoned. So why should we consider that in this case no "game effect" has happened ?

But I'd like to take this example to ask:

Does anyone know other rulings concerning optional triggers vs. continuous effects, by which one could try to figure if this is an abnormal situation (a.k.a.bad ruling ) or if there are similar cases throughout the game ?

Thanks

Carlos

 

[John Danker]

I think some are missing the point concerning LLAB (unless it's me that's missing the point) Level Limit Area B doesn't use the chain, therefore, nothing has happened before the activation of Mobius's effect (at least according to how the game of Yugioh is ruled)

The effect of Stumbling DOES use the chain and after resolution it is considered that an event HAS resolved making the timing incorrect for the activation of Mobius's effect....

or is it ME that is completely misunderstanding the jist of this discussion?