Rule on priority

S

Schwarz

Guest
A couple of questions since some people just don't understand and i need answers from an official source.

First, i need to know if this is right, i read it in a site (not the official one) and i agree with what it says...anyway, here it is:

"Well because summons, draws, attacks, phase/step changes, discards, etc. do not have speeds. You cannot actually chain to something which has no speed, thus you cannot chain to a summon, draw, chain, attack, phase/step change, discard, etc..

The good thing about responding, however, is that you can basically respond to almost anything. You can respond to a summon, a change in phase/step, the end of a chain, a card being sent to the Graveyard, drawing a card, etc. Basically, if you can do it or declare it, you can respond to it. Keep in mind, however, that when you respond, it has already taken place, so when you are responding to a phase change from Main Phase 1 to Battle Phase, your response is taking place in the Battle Phase, not Main Phase 1. "

So, what this means is that even if its not your turn, u can activate traps or quick-play magic cards (provided they were set before) anytime, right? u don't need to wait for the turn player to do something? For example, in my opponents draw phase, i can activate "Call of the Haunted" to bring one of my monsters from the graveyard to the field even if my opponent didn't do anything?

Or...lets put it this way...if my opponent draws a cards, and decides to pass the turn, i have the chance to do something in any of his phases, right? like activating a trap before he ends his turn 'cause he has to pass priority sooner or later in his turn?

Well, that's it
Thanks.
 
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So what happens if this situation crops up:

Turn player normal summons Tribe infecting virus
Turn player discards a card, declaring a monster type in order to use tribe's effect.
Opponent uses Soelmn judgement to negate the summon.

According to the FAQs the turn player never technically used the effect of tribe, and somehow gets his discard back.
 
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EDIT: Just to clarify here, I was responding to krazykidpsx's post.

Okay now you've just lost me.

First of all, I never told you to activate the effect of Mobius when you summon him, I said to declare you are activating the effect when you summon him. It's your priority here, not your oppnent's. That said, he can still respond to the summon with Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment. Thereby "undoing" the summon and Mobius effect never gets the opportunity to go off. You don't wait to ask if they are going to negate the summon or not. You always declare when you summon whether you are going to use your priority or not. These two cards simply undo what you just did.

Again, I dont think I could have stated more clearly that Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment respond to the action of summoning. Not to the action of tributing. I don't know where you got the idea that I was suggesting that you could tribute for no reason. I never stated that. I never even suggested that. And to quote you:
krazykidpsx said:
as soon as i see the monster being sent to the graveyard that only means 1 thing.

a tribute summon is about to occur.
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I never insinuated that it wasn't two seperate actons, either. However, you seem to believe that Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment can respond to the act of Tributing a monster (sending it to the Graveyard.)

That just isn't the case.

The cards both clearly state that they can only respond to the summon of the monster. The tribute is not the summon. It is not part of the summon. It is a cost for the summon.

I don't mean to be rude, but, your stuck on the notion that your opponent shouldn't get to see what you are summoning when you Tribute Summon, but then, why exactly would they get to see a monster that was Normal Summoned or Flip Summoned or Special Summoned?

Your convinced that Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment stop the summon. They do not. They undo the summon, as I have already stated. And the ONLY way to undo anything is to wait for it to happen first.

There's no clearer way to explain it.
 
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Manta said:
But that means that the turn player would have had to have shown a card from his/her hand for no reason, something doesn't quite ring right with that.
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Ufortunately, that's just too bad.

Activating Tribe at that point would be illegal activation.

The standard procedure for illegal activation is to rewind the game back to the state it was in proior to the effect being played.
 
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skey23 said:
Why not? This is the whole 'Priority' issue. When you successfuly tribute "Mobius", YOU, as the turn player, have the right to activate his effect and declare the 2 cards you wish to destroy BEFRORE your opponent can chain with "Solemn" or "Horn" or "Bottomless" or whatever.
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skey23,
Actually, you don't have priority to do anything until the summon is successful, and it isn't successful until your opponent elects to not play Solemn or Horn. After that you have priority to activate Mobius's effect and they could chain with Bottomless or whatever.

Because summons are rarely negated we're guilty of sometimes ignoring this detail.

yugi
 
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Just for clarity, was the non-turn player using Solemn Judgment against the summon of Tribe, or agianst activation of its effect?

I think that might make a difference

-chaosruler
 
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chaosruler said:
Just for clarity, was the non-turn player using Solemn Judgment against the summon of Tribe, or agianst activation of its effect?

I think that might make a difference

-chaosruler
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Solemn Judgment:
Pay half of your Life Points. Negate an activation of a Spell / Trap Card / Normal Summon / Flip Summon / Special Summon and destroy the Spell Card, Trap Card, or Summoned monster.

So he must activate it against the summon, because he can't use solemn against the activation of its effect ;)
 
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yugi said:
skey23,
Actually, you don't have priority to do anything until the summon is successful, and it isn't successful until your opponent elects to not play Solemn or Horn. After that you have priority to activate Mobius's effect and they could chain with Bottomless or whatever.

Because summons are rarely negated we're guilty of sometimes ignoring this detail.

yugi
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That would contradict the whole meaning of Priority. You don't have priority unless " . . . your opponent elects to not play Solemn or Horn." Your opponent always has to wait for the summon before he can even think of activating Horn or Solemn. Not the other way around.
 
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It would make sense however if the summon layout works like this:

Turn Player summons a monster
Opponent declares use of counter-traps here
Player now uses turn priority with mosnter effects and such here
Opponent responds to summon or chains to effect here.

I can dream can't I?
 
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Manta said:
It would make sense however if the summon layout works like this:

Turn Player summons a monster
Opponent declares use of counter-traps here
Player now uses turn priority with mosnter effects and such here
Opponent responds to summon or chains to effect here.

I can dream can't I?
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I afraid your missing the point, Manta.
There is no pause after your summon. That would contradict the meaning of the word "priority." This is how it plays out.

TurnPlayer summons a monster.
Player now uses turn priority with monster effects here
Opponent responds to summon with Horn of Heaven
The Summon is negated and any effects that were used by the summoned monster are undone.

The game is rewound back to before the monster was summoned. This is how these cards work.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
I afraid your missing the point, Manta.
There is no pause after your summon. That would contradict the meaning of the word "priority." This is how it plays out.

TurnPlayer summons a monster.
Player now uses turn priority with monster effects here
Opponent responds to summon with Horn of Heaven
The Summon is negated and any effects that were used by the summoned monster are undone.

The game is rewound bcak to before the monster is summoned. This is how these cards work.
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Not sure what exactly you are trying to say here but here's how it works in general.

The is a summon declaration step prior to the successful summon of a monster.

1.) Turn Player declares a Normal Summon
2.) Opponent can respond with Horn of Heaven/Solemn Judgment/Royal Oppression
3.) Turn Player Normal Summons a monster successfully
4.) Turn Player can use Iginition Effects etc.
5.) Opponent can respond

What happened in the original question was that the Turn Player skiped 2 and went right 3/4. Which is of course illegal so the game is rewound back to 2.
 
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OOO, like i said.

you have to wait to see if the summon is even going to be succesfull by novastars steps.

If you notice it doesnt say, Summon, Activate, then wait.

its summon, OPPONENT CAN RESPOND.

you might not have understood me, but you should have thought about what i was talking about was that an action of summoning comes in 2 parts if its for higher levels.

and you summon, the summon isnt considered successfull untill the opponent says they wont be using Horn or solem or royal (special summon cases)

then it is considered succesfull.

in case of mobius, and ill quote you on that one:

digital jedi said:
But you should really call the effect of Mobius when you first summon him, whether he's going to get negated or not.
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as you can see in mobious case, i cant even call out that i will be using the effec, sincet he isnt considered summoned successfully untill the opponent say its kool and the summon actaully takes place. NOW comes the effect declaration which is my Turn player Priority to use Spell Speed 1 or 2 before my opponent.

and there are speed 2 ignition effects like Maryukotai or A Team : Trap Disposal unit.

and speed 1 of course we know its tribe, x-force, bls-e, etc..

i dont want to be sounding mean or mest up to you, but thats how im seeing it work.
 
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krazykidpsx said:
OOO, like i said.

you have to wait to see if the summon is even going to be succesfull by novastars steps.

If you notice it doesnt say, Summon, Activate, then wait.

its summon, OPPONENT CAN RESPOND.

you might not have understood me, but you should have thought about what i was talking about was that an action of summoning comes in 2 parts if its for higher levels.

and you summon, the summon isnt considered successfull untill the opponent says they wont be using Horn or solem or royal (special summon cases)

then it is considered succesfull.

in case of mobius, and ill quote you on that one:



as you can see in mobious case, i cant even call out that i will be using the effec, sincet he isnt considered summoned successfully untill the opponent say its kool and the summon actaully takes place. NOW comes the effect declaration which is my Turn player Priority to use Spell Speed 1 or 2 before my opponent.

and there are speed 2 ignition effects like Maryukotai or A Team : Trap Disposal unit.

and speed 1 of course we know its tribe, x-force, bls-e, etc..

i dont want to be sounding mean or mest up to you, but thats how im seeing it work.
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Novastar, this is why I explained the steps like I did.

With the pattern you describe it leaves this gap in between the declaration of the summon and the actual summon (not saying that the gap isn't there) and it's leading some people to believe that their opponent shouldn't get to see what's being summoned before activating Horn of Heaven or the like. Or that they tribute a monster first, wait to see if thier opponent is going to use one of the two cards and THEN Summon the monster.

But from all I've learned here and on the Realms these years is that cards that negate effects or events usually have to be chained directly precedding the event they are negating. Both Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment and even Royal Oppression requre the last thing to happen to be a Summon. Not the declaration. I know it opens up a slight can of worms with Jinzo and others but it makes some sense even for them.

All three cards use the word "negate." Not "stop" or "prevent." If they "prevented" the summon then I could understand why your opponent wouldn't be able to activate at declaration of the summon. But it uses a word that clearly mens to undo, to counteract, invalidate or nullify. Meaning it would have to happen first and then the cards effect rewinds the game back to before it happened and destroy it.
 
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Clearly, in novastar's step one, declaring a summon includes tributing if necessary and placing the monster on the field. The question is whether the summon is considered successful at this point, even if later it is negated by say solemn.

In the past, I've decided to not ask difficult questions for situations that will rarely happen. But I'll make an exception for the sake of illustrating the difference.

Let's suppose that player 1 tries to tribute summon Mobius and player 2 responds with solemn, then player 1 chains with seven tools to negate solemn. Would Mobius still get it's effect?

If novastar is correct, the answer would be "Yes" since the last thing to happen was the summon. If Digital Jedi is correct then Mobius would miss it's timing since the last things to occur are seven tools resolving and solemn resolving without effect. So the answer would be "No".

I say "Yes", but I expect that knowledgeable people will disagree on the answer.

Yugi

P.S.
Is "not asking hard questions" a good policy, or would people enjoy hard questions to stimulate discussion? Or is this a simple question?
 
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Evil Fiber Jar said:
Turn player draw a card during draw phase. Non-turn player activate Drop-Off.
Does turn player have the right to activate any thing before non-turn player can activate drop off?
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No, you must draw that card.

Also note that, the Non-Turn Player can activate Drop Off "before" the actual card is drawn.

Just letting you know. :)
 
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