Rulings test

J

John Danker

Administrator
I give credit to tyloki who posted this test on another site for the couple of questions I'm posting. They certainly provoke thought.....

1. Dark Ruler Ha Des attacks a Reflect Bounder equipped with Heavy Mech Support Platform.

1.1 Does Reflect Bounder inflict the 2450?

1.2 Is Reflect Bounder destroyed? If yes, is it:

A: destroyed as a result of battle?
B: destroyed by its effect?


2. Player B has a face-down Cyber Jar.
Player A summons Tribe-Infecting Virus, and uses priority to use the effect. He declares Fairy (to kill his own Shining Angel).
Player B chains Desert Sunlight (to flip the face-down jar face-up)

Link 1: Tribe-Infecting Virus
Link 2: Desert Sunlight

Show how the chain would resolve, and tell what order the effects would happen
 
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densetsu_x....don't over simplify it....can't you see we're trying to have a long, drawn out, picky and demented debate while picking apart a ruling here? <smirk>

<kicking the ground> You never let us have ANY fun!
<stomping away>
 
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densetsu_x said:
I go away for an hour and look what I miss...

Actually, the 2 scenarios described by Novastar, I described back on page 1 or early in 2. It depends on which is correct: the "Official FAQ" with the DRHD vs. Bounder (where DRHD Destroys and negates Bounder's effect but it's still destroyed by battle) OR Kevin's essay that lists Reflect Bounder's effect in step 4 which is before a monster is considered destroyed by battle so it would be destroyed by that first.

IN EITHER CASE though, Reflect Bounder is still destroyed eventually either by battle or by effect.
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Let point out one VERY important thing.

If the Damage Step chart were correct and RB's effect occured in Sub-Step 4 then RB would never be able to be destroyed in battle, at all. (well, unless of course it was attacked in DEF position, but i think its understood by now that we are not talking about that).

That is obviously flawed.
 
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novastar said:
Let point out one VERY important thing.

If the Damage Step chart were correct and RB's effect occured in Sub-Step 4 then RB would never be able to be destroyed in battle, at all.

That is obviously flawed.
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I thought THAT was the whole point of it's self destruct effect...lol :p
 
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That was the debate before the consistancy between that and the ruling. But even if it is never destroyed in battle and always destroyed by effect, it occurs after damage calculation was performed and damage inflicted. So that would not change either way.
 
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skey23 said:
I thought THAT was the whole point of it's self destruct effect...lol :p
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No, RB can be destroyed in battle, if attacked by a bigger monster.

The point of the destruction effect is to illustrate that it has used its reflection effect.
 
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densetsu_x said:
That was the debate before the consistancy between that and the ruling. But even if it is never destroyed in battle and always destroyed by effect, it occurs after damage calculation was performed and damage inflicted. So that would not change either way.
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Not in this case, but with other rulings it would (ie. Dark Ruler).

Yeah, i realize that i chimed in late for the debate, so i'm probably behind.
 
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novastar said:
No, RB can be destroyed in battle, if attacked by a bigger monster.

The point of the destruction effect is to illustrate that it has used its reflection effect.
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Ok, then how do you explain this?

"When an Attack Position "Reflect Bounder" is attacked, it is destroyed by its own effect even if the ATK of "Reflect Bounder" is lower than the ATK of the attacking monster."
 
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Well, that inconsistancy is part of the debate too, and there are other instances that could give it grief (like if Mystic Swordsman LVx is strong enough to try and kill it but it gets destroyed by effect first). Personally I agree that I think Kevin has it in the wrong spot.
 
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novastar said:
Let point out one VERY important thing.

If the Damage Step chart were correct and RB's effect occured in Sub-Step 4 then RB would never be able to be destroyed in battle, at all. (well, unless of course it was attacked in DEF position, but i think its understood by now that we are not talking about that).

That is obviously flawed.
Click to expand...
True. But in the origianl scenario Heavy mech support takes the bullet for Reflect Bounder's effect. In that case it would still be hanging around to get smacked upside the head by Ha Des. But it would still be too late to negate it's effect since RB's effect has already resolved.
 
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Reflect Bounder can be destroyed as a result of battle... it's just sent to the graveyard by it's own effect :D is all. If you understood that...

When Dark Ruler Ha Des "destroyed" Reflect Bounder as a result of battle (it is destroyed, just not sent to the graveyard yet) sets a condition for Heavy Mech Support Platform to kick in. Heavy Mech Support Platform will be destroyed in place of Reflect Bounder, thus Reflect Bounder will be destroyed by it's own effect. :D

Another way to look at it:

At the point where Dark Ruler Ha Des "destroyed" Reflect Bounder through Damage Calculation, Heavy Mech Support Platform is destroyed instead later on. So did Dark Ruler Ha Des destroy Reflect Bounder? Not really, so Reflect Bounder is "destroyed" by it's "own effect" that Dark Ruler Ha Des did not negate. :D
 
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<Skipping in after having been gone for 6 hrs.> Soooo....we having fun yet? <cheesy grin>

I do so love it when we bang our collective heads against the wall and come up with.......another wall <laffin>

Don't you hate it when there is no concrete answer....on the forms before the concrete is poured?
 
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I've lost a lot of faith and patience with the Realms community since the Exiled debate. I read through a lot of the discussion, and many people just don't have a solid grasp of things and just pick at straws.

I find the members and discussions here to be much more high level and accurate.
 
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novastar said:
I've lost a lot of faith and patience with the Realms community since the Exiled debate. I read through a lot of the discussion, and many people just don't have a solid grasp of things and just pick at straws.

I find the members and discussions here to be much more high level and accurate.
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Yay us!
And damnit why do I always seem to miss the start of the good mechanics debates!:mad: (detestable rotation of the earth and timezones and such, CURSE YOU!)
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
It can be destroyed by a result of battle, it just isn't sent to the graveyard as a result of battle since it's effect is later applied.
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Ok, if it 'could' be destroyed as a result of battle, then HOW can it be destroyed AGAIN by it's own effect?

It's already been stated on this thread by Novastar I believe, but once a monster is destroyed, it's destroyed and it can't be destroyed again.
 
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