Rulings test

J

John Danker

Administrator
I give credit to tyloki who posted this test on another site for the couple of questions I'm posting. They certainly provoke thought.....

1. Dark Ruler Ha Des attacks a Reflect Bounder equipped with Heavy Mech Support Platform.

1.1 Does Reflect Bounder inflict the 2450?

1.2 Is Reflect Bounder destroyed? If yes, is it:

A: destroyed as a result of battle?
B: destroyed by its effect?


2. Player B has a face-down Cyber Jar.
Player A summons Tribe-Infecting Virus, and uses priority to use the effect. He declares Fairy (to kill his own Shining Angel).
Player B chains Desert Sunlight (to flip the face-down jar face-up)

Link 1: Tribe-Infecting Virus
Link 2: Desert Sunlight

Show how the chain would resolve, and tell what order the effects would happen
 
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Let me try and summurize this just to be helpful and to clear things up in my own head as well:
  • If you go by the ruling, then Reflect Bounder is destroyed by Dark Ruler Ha Des in battle before it's self-destruction effect can activate. That only negates the self-destruction effect but since Reflect Bounder is already considered destroyed by battle its a moot point. All of this occurs in Damage Sub-step 5 (resolve Effects) long after Reflect Bounder's Effect Damage has been inflicted.
Throw Heavy Mech Support Platform into the mix and RB survives battle but later self-destructs.
  • If you go by the Damage Step Chart, then Reflect Bounder is destroyed by it's own effect in Damage Sub-step 4, a sub-step before the portion of the Damage Step where monsters are considered destroyed by battle (Sub-step 5). So Ha Des swings and misses. All of this occurs long after Reflect Bounder's Effect Damage has been inflicted.
Throw Heavy Mech Support Platform into the mix and RB survives it's own slef-destruction effect, only to be clubbed upside the head by Dark Ruler Ha Des.



So either way Reflect Bounder's Effect Damage is inflicted, and Reflect Bounder is destroyed. And RB never gets destroyed twice.
 
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skey23 said:
Ok, if it 'could' be destroyed as a result of battle, then HOW can it be destroyed AGAIN by it's own effect?

It's already been stated on this thread by Novastar I believe, but once a monster is destroyed, it's destroyed and it can't be destroyed again.
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In my example I said Reflect Bounder can be destroyed destroyed as a result of battle, just not sent to the graveyard by it.

That was the first example in my post. It was to simply say it can be destroyed as a result of battle.

In the Heavy Mech Support Platform situation, Reflect Bounder is to be destroyed in battle through damage calculation as a result of battle, but Heavy Mech Support is up to that task. Reflect Bounder would then destroy itself through it's own effect.
 
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skey23 said:
Ok, if it 'could' be destroyed as a result of battle, then HOW can it be destroyed AGAIN by it's own effect?

It's already been stated on this thread by Novastar I believe, but once a monster is destroyed, it's destroyed and it can't be destroyed again.
Click to expand...

Yes, once a monster is destroyed, it cannot be destroyed again.

What this means it can be destroyed by other effects, so to say if Blast with Chain cannot target a monster that is already destroyed.
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
Yes, once a monster is destroyed, it cannot be destroyed again.
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Ok, so you agree with me?

StRiKe_NiNjA said:
What this means it can be destroyed by other effects, so to say if Blast with Chain cannot target a monster that is already destroyed.
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How can it be destroyed by another effect if it's no longer a valid target for being destroyed because it's ALREADY DESTROYED?

So, somewhat similar issue here:

My "Marauding Captain" attacks a face-down "Cyber Jar". Is the "Cyber Jar" destroyed as a result of battle, or by it's effect? It's destroyed as a result of battle. It can't be destroyed by it's effect (again) because it's already been deemed destroyed as a result of battle.

I believe that Kevin's battle chart is absolutely correct in it's placement of "Reflect Bounder"s self destruction effect. It's designed to self destruct immediately after damage calculation (per the card text), but before it would be destroyed as a result of battle. As such, and I've already posted the ruling to support this, "Reflect Bounder", under normal situations, will NEVER be destroyed as a result of battle. It can't be. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? I aslo feel it is the "Dark Ruler Ha Des" ruling that is in error, not Kevin's chart, nor the other rulings.

In my opinion, the only way that it could be destroyed as a result of battle would be any time it's equipped with "HMSP", or when "Skill Drain" was active on the field. I'm sure there are others, but they'd have to either save it from destruction during the damage step, or negate it's self destruct effect.

There...I'm done...

Has anybody posted this to the Judge's List?

If not, I will.
 
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I am so sorry, I click "Edit" instead of "Quote". If anyone in here has the original statement or the moderators can retrieve the original document here. I would greatly appreciate it.

>.< so mad at myself....
 
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I believe that Kevin's battle chart is absolutely correct in it's placement of "Reflect Bounder"s self destruction effect. It's designed to self destruct immediately after damage calculation (per the card text), but before it would be destroyed as a result of battle. As such, and I've already posted the ruling to support this, "Reflect Bounder", under normal situations, will NEVER be destroyed as a result of battle. It can't be. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? I aslo feel it is the "Dark Ruler Ha Des" ruling that is in error, not Kevin's chart, nor the other rulings.

In my opinion, the only way that it could be destroyed as a result of battle would be any time it's equipped with "HMSP", or when "Skill Drain" was active on the field. I'm sure there are others, but they'd have to either save it from destruction during the damage step, or negate it's self destruct effect.
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Lets point out another VERY important point. Kevin himself put a disclaimer on the chart stating that it was not 100% complete or verified. (nothing EVER seems to be)

Considering that supposedly the ruling has been verified by Konami and Kevin's chart is ...well... Kevin's chart, i myself would definately go by the ruling.

The general idea here is that no monster is considered "destroyed" (by any means) until DC is complete.
 
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My "Marauding Captain" attacks a face-down "Cyber Jar". Is the "Cyber Jar" destroyed as a result of battle, or by it's effect? It's destroyed as a result of battle. It can't be destroyed by it's effect (again) because it's already been deemed destroyed as a result of battle.
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As a general idea, any effect that destroys a card, also sends it to the Graveyard as well.

So in the case, Cyber would be destroyed in battle and it's effect would simply send it to the Graveyard, rather than it being sent normally at the end of the Damage Step.
 
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chaosruler said:
Wait, I mean no offense, but Divine Wrath doesn't have to destroy the monster to negate it, so wouldn't Cyber Jar still technically be destroyed by battle?

-chaosruler
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Remember, you can negate effects that activate in the graveyard with Divine Wrath like Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys, but it does not destroy since it's already in the graveyard, the effect is just negated then.

I never said Divine Wrath has to destroy a monster to negate the effect.
 
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Rope of Life could not be activated.

Yes, Cyber Jar was destroyed by battle, and there's no way to undue that. But Divine Wrath also destroys cyber Jar, and Divine Wrath sends it to the graveyard.

Rope of Life requires a monster to be sent to the graveyard as a result of battle, and that would not happen here.
 
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novastar said:
Considering that supposedly the ruling has been verified by Konami and Kevin's chart is ...well... Kevin's chart, i myself would definately go by the ruling.
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But one of my points was the fact the rulings are not consistent. One ruling states "Reflect Bounder" will always be destroyed by it's effect even when battling a monster with a higher ATK. Then another rulings says it's destroyed as a result of battle when it battles against "Dark Ruler Ha Des".

So which of those two rulings do we go by?

Do we say that "Reflect Bounder" is always destroyed by it's effect unless it specifically battles with "Dark Ruler Ha Des", or a Fiend while "Dark Ruler" is on the field?
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
If Cyber Jar is first destroyed as a result of battle through calculation, then it's effect is negated by Divine Wrath, and destroyed and sent to the graveyard by Divine Wrath, can Cyber Jar be Special Summoned by the effect of Rope of Life? Hehe, this is the twist, so try to figure this one out... :D you've got an answer.
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I must say, this is a VERY good counter-point example to my argument...lol.
 
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How come we got to muck around in the mud and mire of inconsistancy, while the guy who started this thread just sits in the shadows and revels in our misery? :mad: (I'll give you a hint to who I'm talking about. His name is John Danker)


:p
 
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<Backing away slowly with my palms face out and up> Now now gentlemen.....I'm just doing my job....bringing interesting and provocative topic matter to the forefront <suddenly turning and running and laughing maniacally>
 
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skey23 said:
But one of my points was the fact the rulings are not consistent. One ruling states "Reflect Bounder" will always be destroyed by it's effect even when battling a monster with a higher ATK. Then another rulings says it's destroyed as a result of battle when it battles against "Dark Ruler Ha Des".

So which of those two rulings do we go by?

Do we say that "Reflect Bounder" is always destroyed by it's effect unless it specifically battles with "Dark Ruler Ha Des", or a Fiend while "Dark Ruler" is on the field?
Click to expand...
Where is that ruling? I don't see it.

EDIT: K, i see it.

"When an Attack Position "Reflect Bounder" is attacked, it is destroyed by its own effect even if the ATK of "Reflect Bounder" is lower than the ATK of the attacking monster."

That is probably because Kevin doesn't know any better, and somehow thinks that it can be destroyed twice.

I interpret that as simply: "No matter what Reflect Bounder" will go the Graveyard by its effect, no matter what the outcome of the battle is."
 
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