SACRED PHOENIX OF NEPHTHYS Question

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Tonylaudat

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If my opponet attemps to Special Summon Phenoix from the graveyard via its effect, and I activate either Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgement in responce to negate the summoning, would Phoenix be able to revive itself again? Also, if so, where would Phoenix be considered to have been destoried?
 
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I believe that you are incorrect. The offical rulings for Vampire Lord state that you can get it when it is special summoned by its own effect (that and you can chain Horn of Heaven to a Monster trying to Special Summon itself). I would assume that this would also hold true for the phoenix.

If this is the case, I am curious as to where phenoix would be considered destoried as is it was never considered to have let the graveyared, then it would not be able to Special Summon itself again via its own effect (as it the case with Divine Wrath).
 
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Tonylaudat said:
I believe that you are incorrect. The offical rulings for Vampire Lord state that you can get it when it is special summoned by its own effect (that and you can chain Horn of Heaven to a Monster trying to Special Summon itself). I would assume that this would also hold true for the phoenix.
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No. You may not chain Horn of Heaven to a monster trying to special summon itself. You can respond to cards like Garuda the Wind Spirit and Chaos Sorcerer that do not use the chain.

Horn of Heaven can destroy Vampire Lord when it is (attempted to be:) tribute summoned, or flip summoned, not at any other time.
 
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chaosruler said:
But, even if you can Horn of Heaven/Solemn Judgment it, I believe that it will still re-summon itself next turn due to being destroyed by a card effect.

-chaosruler
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And the rulings agree with you:
[Re: Vampire Lord] If you Summon "Vampire Lord" and he is destroyed by your opponent's "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment", "Vampire Lord" will be Special Summoned in your next Standby Phase.

As to negating the summon from the Graveyard with either of these cards since they cannot negate an effect and the summon is only the resolution of an effect it would be wrong timing for their activation I think.
 
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I just want to make sure that everybody understands what the ruling from "Vampire Lord" being 'thrown around' is talking about.

That ruling is referring to "Vampire Lord" being summoned from your HAND, not when it's Special Summoned via it's effect from the Graveyard.

DaGuy and chaosruler are absolutely correct on this one. Neither "Solemn Judgment", nor "Horn of Heaven" can negate the Special Summoning of a monster by an 'outside' effect. These effects are ones similar to "Premature Burial", "Call of the Haunted", "Vampire Lord"/"Phoenix"s 'self resurrection' effect.


Hope this helps!
 
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Sometimes it's best to put the situation into a little Chain Block chart.

Link 1: Monster Effect
Link 2: Solemn Judgment/Horn of Heaven

Link 2 is illegal since these cards can't negate a monster effect which has been obviously stated above in other posts. With that fact known it's pretty clear to see that the monster will come back. However, another fact to remember is that you can't chain to something that doesn't have a Spell Speed. Which would be the summoning. Another thing is that you couldn't activate neither Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment anyway because they negate spell, trap, or monster cards being activated/summoned.
 
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You guys are referring to Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys and Vampire Lord have the same effect. If you "negate a special summon and destroy the monster" you -DESTROYED- the monster. The monster being placed on the field means it is now special summoned, you may however, chain to Phoenixes effect of special summoning with Divine Wrath, because his effect activates in the grave yard, this is on the rulings for the card.

Here's how it goes.

Link 1: Special Summoning Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys
Link 2: Counter the special summon with Solemn Judgement/Horn of Heaven
Resolution: The special summon was negated and the monster was destroyed, phoenixes effect states that if it is destroyed from a card effect it will special summon during the next Stand By phase.

Is this so confusing because the special summon was "negated"? Even if it says "negated" it also says "destroyed" which is the part of Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys effect.
 
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Complex_Mind said:
You guys are referring to Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys and Vampire Lord have the same effect. If you "negate a special summon and destroy the monster" you -DESTROYED- the monster. The monster being placed on the field means it is now special summoned, you may however, chain to Phoenixes effect of special summoning with Divine Wrath, because his effect activates in the grave yard, this is on the rulings for the card.

Here's how it goes.

Link 1: Special Summoning Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys
Link 2: Counter the special summon with Solemn Judgement/Horn of Heaven
Resolution: The special summon was negated and the monster was destroyed, phoenixes effect states that if it is destroyed from a card effect it will special summon during the next Stand By phase.

Is this so confusing because the special summon was "negated"? Even if it says "negated" it also says "destroyed" which is the part of Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys effect.
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However, you've confused a few things that were being stated, Complex.

Tony's original question was could he activate Solemn Judgment or Horn of Heaven in responce to Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys (or Vampire Lord) returning during the Standby Phase via it's effect. The second part of his question was dependant on whether you could activate these two cards in this instance.

But the answer was no. Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment cannot even be activated in response to Vampire Lord's or Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys' respective effects. Why? Because neither of these cards can respond to a Monster Effect activating. It doesn't matter if thatthe effect is Summoning. What matters is that these two traps cannot stop a Special Summon from a Monster Effect

Also we were clarifying that Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment CAN be activated in response to thier Normal/Tribute Summon and that, in this case, they would return because they were considered destroyed.

So Divine Wrath doesn't really aply in this case. Divine Wrath responds to a Monster Effect, not to a Special Summon. So it can respond to these two Monsters Special Summoning them selves wheras Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment cannot.

Also double check your Divine Wrath rulings because even if you Divine Wrath V Lord or Phoenix, since these effect are activating in the Graveyard you can't destroy them there. It like trying to stab a zombie to death. It can't happen.

From the FAQ on Divine Wrath:

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Vampire Lord" or "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" activate their effects in the Graveyard, and their effects are negated and they are not Special Summoned; but because they cannot be "destroyed" while in the Graveyard, they are not destroyed by a card effect so their effect will not activate again.
 
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Why can't you use Horn of Heaven to negate the Special summon of V. Lord or Phoenix. I know that it is a monster effect that brings them back, but if you call Jowgen back from the graveyard in responce to the effect, then the monster would not be special summoned despite the fact that the effect that attempted to special summon the monster resolved successfully.

To this end, I would argue that the effect that Special summons a monster from the graveyard, and the Special summon of that monster itself are two indpendent events (or else Call + Jowgen could not stop a monster from being Special summoned as Jowgen does not acutally negate the special summoning effect.) If this is true, then wouldn't all special summons have to go something like this...

Chain link 1 effect attempts to target a monster that will be special summoned to the field if sucessful...then

Responce chain 1 targeted monster now attempts to be special summoned to the field.
 
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Tonylaudat said:
Why can't you use Horn of Heaven to negate the Special summon of V. Lord or Phoenix. I know that it is a monster effect that brings them back, but if you call Jowgen back from the graveyard in responce to the effect, then the monster would not be special summoned despite the fact that the effect that attempted to special summon the monster resolved successfully.

To this end, I would argue that the effect that Special summons a monster from the graveyard, and the Special summon of that monster itself are two indpendent events (or else Call + Jowgen could not stop a monster from being Special summoned as Jowgen does not acutally negate the special summoning effect.) If this is true, then wouldn't all special summons have to go something like this...

Chain link 1 effect attempts to target a monster that will be special summoned to the field if sucessful...then

Responce chain 1 targeted monster now attempts to be special summoned to the field.
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You could argue that, but you'd be missing a few key points here.

Solemn Judgment and Horn of Heaven are Counter Traps. By that nature they must be activated in direct response to whatever they are affecting. When Vampire Lord or Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys are resolving thier effects, a Special Summon occurs. Horn of Heaven and Solomen Judgment cannot repond to this effect resolution simply because part of it includes a Special Summon.

Jowgan the Spiritualist is a totally different effect. Its effect continuously applys and prevents any and all Special Summons. In your Call of the Haunted example Jowgan's effect is becoming active inbetween steps of a chain (much the way Jinzo's effect works when Call-ed). This is completely different from the nautre of Counter Traps and thier proper response timing.
 
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But since the beginning (after Horn of Heaven changed), Konami told us, including UDE, that Horn of Heaven could not prevent OUTSIDE effects, and that was why it could not stop, say, Mystic Tomato.. If I could figure out how to search through messages in Outlook Express, I might be able to show you that.

Unless I'm thinking of Edo's EERP. That might be it too. But that also was from the beginning. Or near it.

Also, Fusion Gate does not go on chain in Japan, yet its effect can't be negated by Horn of Heaven. Hm...
 
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The effect of Phoenix/Vampire Lord activate and resolve. Unless Divine Wrath is used to prevent this or some other valid card that can be activated or has an effect to negate the effect then they will be Special Summoned.

So still, Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment can't be activated in response to the effect activating because that's an effect, not a monster, spell, or trap card being activated which would then start a chain. Nor does it state anywhere on either of those Counter Trap cards that they'll negate a monster effect. That's why we have Divine Wrath. They can only be activated in response to a summoning to negate it.
 
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