SACRED PHOENIX OF NEPHTHYS Question

T

Tonylaudat

New Member
If my opponet attemps to Special Summon Phenoix from the graveyard via its effect, and I activate either Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgement in responce to negate the summoning, would Phoenix be able to revive itself again? Also, if so, where would Phoenix be considered to have been destoried?
 
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skey23 said:
Ok, now I'm confused again...lol.

By Trap Monster, I assume you are referring to "Embodiment of Apophis". Or are you referring to the "Ojama" tokens as well?
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Yes, but this is mainly refering to Horn.

...of course SJ cannot be used on a Triggered (Spell/Trap) effect like Statue of the Wicked either, since it has to be chained to Card Activation.

skey23 said:
Also, I understood your ruling post to mean the following:

Monsters like "BLS - EotB", "Fenrir", "Dark Necrofear", "Soul of Purity and Light", etc.., are the monsters being referred to in the 'inherent' Special Summoning. And that "Horn of Heaven" and "Solemn Judgment" can be used to negate those Special Summons.

I did NOT take it to include the 'reborn' ability of monsters such as "Vampire Lord", "Twin-Headed Behemoth", and the "Phoenix".

Was I mistaken?
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Yes, it does include them, but things need to be revised.
 
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I seriously doubt that this "limbo zone" exists.

Cards, effects, objects all exist in any one of the defined Zones in the game, and if it's not in one, it is in another.
 
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Ok, so to help clear this up, once and for all (maybe).
From the old Netrepâ„¢ 6.0 files:

"Horn of Heaven" may only be used to negate the Summon of a monster that is being Summoned through its own effect, like that of "Gate Guardian", "Dark Necrofear", etc."

"Horn of Heaven" may not be used to negate the Special Summon of a monster being Special Summoned through the effect of another card."
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This is how I understood these.
The 1st ruling was referring to cards that were basically 'Special Summon only' type cards, MEANING, the ONLY way they could be summoned initially, was by Special Summon, usually the monsters required you to remove x-cards from your Graveyard to Special Summon them.

I, and apparently several other people, did not classify monsters like "Vampire Lord" and the "Phoenix" with these because it was their EFFECT that summons them back, NOT how they were summoned in the first place.

The 2nd ruling I think everybody agrees on, you can't use "Horn" or "SJ" on monsters brought back by "Call", "Premature", etc..

Now, THIS is where I had the monsters like "Vampire Lord" and the "Phoenix" classified becuase it was their EFFECT that was bringing them back, not a condition of their initial summoning.


But you are now saying that monsters like "Vampire Lord" and the "Phoenix" should be 'lumped' into the same category as monsters like "Chaos Sorcerer", "Fenrir", etc..?

And as such, becuase they are being brought back by an effect generated/activated within 'themselves', not considered an outside effect like "Premature Burial", then both "Horn of Heaven" and "Solemn Judgment" can be used to negate that Special Summoning?

To re-iterate, I'm asking for clarification on this.

Thanks.
 
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Honestly, i don't believe there is a concrete official ruling that specifically states that both types are included as "internal Special Summons" so clarification is difficult, plus what more is there to say?

We are extrapolating based on newer statements made on the board by Curtis (i dont know where they are now). We are waiting for a ruling.

As far as we can extrapolate, any monster Special Summoned through the use of text written on the card itself (that actually performs the SS), can have it's summon negated by Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment. That includes Special Summons from Hand, Triggers, or Ignition Effects.

On a personal note, i actually agree that Horn/SJ should not be able to negated the activated ones, but i'm afraid that logic won't be the recognized one.
 
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Well alrighty then! That successfully contradicts arguments put forth by DaGuy, Chaosruler, and myself, but will probably make Tony 'fairly' happy.

Now....about this 'limbo' state. So, if we are to continue with this 'debate' under the 'assumption' that you CAN activate either "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment" in response to "Vampire Lord" and/or the "Phoenix" bringing itself back from the Graveyard, just where is the monster considered to be when it gets destroyed by said "HoH" and/or "SJ"?

From the UDE FAQ:
"[Re: Electric Snake] If the summoning of "Electric Snake" is negated by "Solemn Judgment", etc. its effect is not activated, as it is not considered to have gone directly from your hand to the Graveyard."
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Ok, so it's not in the hand if negated. I guess we could take that to mean the monster wouldn't be in the Graveyard in the case of "Vampire Lord" and/or the "Phoenix".

From the UDE FAQ:
"[Re: Sangan] If the Summon of this card is negated with "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment" you do not get its effect."
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Well, this can ONLY mean the monster wasn't on the field, since we ALL know "Sangan"s effect requires it be sent from the field to the Graveyard.

So, if it's not in the hand, on the field, or in the Graveyard, then where is it when it gets destroyed?

I know, I know...that's what we're waiting on with Konami/UDE/Kevin/whomever!
 
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novastar said:
The card is on the field... the "monster" has not actually been resolved to the field... so it is not considered summoned if negated.

The wording in the ruling is off.
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Ok, so, once again for clarification, lol.

If this IS the case, then that would mean that when the Special Summoning of either "Vampire Lord" and/or the "Phoenix" is negated with "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment", then they would NOT be considered destroyed while in the Graveyard, and WOULD then be able to activate their effect and return during your next Standby Phase as they would be considered to have been destroyed by your opponent's card effect?

Thanks.
 
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If this IS the case, then that would mean that when the Special Summoning of either "Vampire Lord" and/or the "Phoenix" is negated with "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment", then they would NOT be considered destroyed while in the Graveyard, and WOULD then be able to activate their effect and return during your next Standby Phase as they would be considered to have been destroyed by your opponent's card effect?
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That is part of what's outstanding here, and this ties in with the Royal Oppression ruling issue as well.

When exactly do you use HoH/SJ?

- If you chain it to the effect, then we can use the Divine Wrath ruling, and say that they will NOT be destroyed, and will NOT return

- if by some "cosmic force" they are on the field and you can somehow "respond" to the summon before it actually resolves fully, then they WILL be destroyed and return.

Those are the options here, based on extrapolation.

Personally, the fact that there are limitations on what HoH/SJ can do in the first point (chaining), and the second point doesn't make any sense at all, i disagree with using HoH/SJ on these effects.
 
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Ok skey, I've been told this by someone a while back and I'll say it here.

Netrep Files v. 6.0 aren't uptodate. There for the ruling it gives may not be accurate at all.

The wording of that ruling gives me the message if I activate cards like Call of the Haunted, Monster Reborn, Premature Burial, Question, etc.. that Horn of Heaven can't negate the Special Summoning.

Because after all, the monster is being Special Summoned through the effect of another card. Obviously, that ruling is incorrect and the Netrep Files are outdated and they took them down for a good reason and IMO the reason was that they started getting outdated.
 
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Well, my personal belief is this:

With "Royal Oppression" and "Divine Wrath", you are chaining to the activation of the effect, while it's in the Graveyard. Since the effect of Special Summoning never resolves, the card is never allowed to leave the Graveyard. And since it never left the Graveyard, it can't de destroyed (again) and will not be able to come back via it's effect again. That, to me at least, seems plain and simple, cut and dry, no issues at all.

With "Horn of Heaven" and "Solemn Judgment", you technically have to wait until "right before the monster is Special Summoned", to quote the "Royal Oppression" ruling, before you can activate them. So, if you're waiting until that point, then that means the monster had to have already left the Graveyard. And if it's not in the Graveyard, then it can be destroyed again and sent back to the Graveyard. So, in that case, the effects of cards like "Vampire Lord" and the "Phoenix" would activate again during the next standby phase.

Again, that's just my personal beliefs based on IF you can use "Horn of Heaven" and "Solemn Judgment" on "Vampire Lord" and/or the "Phoenix" when they use their 'reborning' effect.

I still stand by what I initially said. I don't believe you can use them, but we'll see what the 'official' answer is eventually I suppose.
 
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Tkwiget said:
Ok skey, I've been told this by someone a while back and I'll say it here.

Netrepâ„¢ Files v. 6.0 aren't uptodate. There for the ruling it gives may not be accurate at all.

The wording of that ruling gives me the message if I activate cards like Call of the Haunted, Monster Reborn, Premature Burial, Question, etc.. that Horn of Heaven can't negate the Special Summoning.

Because after all, the monster is being Special Summoned through the effect of another card. Obviously, that ruling is incorrect and the Netrepâ„¢ Files are outdated and they took them down for a good reason and IMO the reason was that they started getting outdated.
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Dear..dear Tkwiget. I know full well they are 'outdated', but they do also contain correct rulings, even if they have been removed from the UDE pages, they are still correct.

And that ruling is one of the correct ones. You can't use "Horn of Heaven" to negate the Special Summon of a monster via an outside effect. This means you can't negate the summon of a monster brought back from the Graveyard by "Monster Reborn", "Call of the Haunted", "Premature Burial", etc.. The reason for this is because you are in the middle of the resolution of an effect, and "Horn of Heaven" cannot interrupt the resolution of that effect. And you can't wait until the effect resolves because the Special Summon has already been completed successfully, so there's nothing to stop at that point.

Now "Solemn Judgment" has the ability to stop them, but it must be chained to the initial effect. The reasons are the same as for "Horn of Heaven". You can't wait until the effect has resolved and the monster has been Special Summoned, because the summon is complete. And you can't negate something that's completely resolved.
 
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However I think one detail has been overlooked.

Royal Oppression has a very different effect and how it will negate a Special Summoning over Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment.

That single difference is that it says it will negate the EFFECT that's Special Summoning the monster as well as the monster being Special Summoned. There for the monster doesn't even leave the Graveyard in the case of Royal Oppression.

However, with Solemn Judgment and Horn of Heaven it's a different case. The reason and logic that I have behind this is because they can only be activated in response to the monster itself being Special Summoned. But, everyone in the thread knows Solemn Judgment can negate (normally anyway) the card that was activated to Special Summon the monster in the first place.
 
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