SACRED PHOENIX OF NEPHTHYS Question

T

Tonylaudat

New Member
If my opponet attemps to Special Summon Phenoix from the graveyard via its effect, and I activate either Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgement in responce to negate the summoning, would Phoenix be able to revive itself again? Also, if so, where would Phoenix be considered to have been destoried?
 
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Um, I'll read it when I get home. (Currently at the college right now.) But this is similiar to a concept someone in my Algebra class a few days ago had.

She couldn't understand something like this.

x + 1 + x + 2 = 23

Is basically 2x + 3 = 23

The point I'm trying to make is that I'm trying to explain how Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment have no relation to the activation of a monster effect. Nothing, whatsoever in any degree.

But I'll read it when I get home man. =) I need some personal reading anyway. xD
 
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Raijinili said:
But since the beginning (after Horn of Heaven changed), Konami told us, including UDE, that Horn of Heaven could not prevent OUTSIDE effects, and that was why it could not stop, say, Mystic Tomato.. If I could figure out how to search through messages in Outlook Express, I might be able to show you that.

Unless I'm thinking of Edo's EERP. That might be it too. But that also was from the beginning. Or near it.

Also, Fusion Gate does not go on chain in Japan, yet its effect can't be negated by Horn of Heaven. Hm...
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LOL...even though you know how i feel about this... according to the rulings this is correct.

It's not mechanically sound, but it's what Konami wants.
 
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My point here is that all of mechanics that are determing whether Horn of Heaven can be used against V.Lord or Phoenix, are based on the assumption that an effect that Special Summons a monster and the Special summoning of that monster are dependent upon one another. If the effect is allowed to resolve, then the monster must be special summoned properly.

Jowgen + Call of the Haunted however provides us a case in which the effect that special summons a monster resolves properly, but the monster is not special summoned properly. Thus, whether the monster is special summoned or not cannot be dependent on whether the effect that is to special summon the monster resolves (otherwise Call + Jowgen would not be able to stop the special summon of a monster).

Because of this the two events (the effect that special summons a monster and the special summon itself) must be independent events. As such, you should be able to activate a trap in responce to either one of them (This is why I believe that the current ruling on Monster Reborn VS Horn of Heaven is incorrect).
 
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The confusion lies in the operation of Counter Traps, and the fact that YGO allows for both action/events with no activation point, and card/effect activations (with a chain point).

The small nuances have not been explained properly.
 
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Ok, one thing's got me confused. What EXACTLY are you (Tony) referring to with the "Call" + "Jowgen" thing?

Are you referring to chaining "Call" to an effect that Special Summons a monster, and targeting "Jowgen" in order to keep that monster from being Special Summoned?

Please explain, because it seems to me you might have something a wee bit confused. (no offense intended)

[edit]I ask only because I don't want to start off on a tangent that doesn't have anything to do with what you're trying to refer to. I am trying not to make any assumptions on your part.
 
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Tonylaudat said:
My point here is that all of mechanics that are determing whether Horn of Heaven can be used against V.Lord or Phoenix, are based on the assumption that an effect that Special Summons a monster and the Special summoning of that monster are dependent upon one another. If the effect is allowed to resolve, then the monster must be special summoned properly.
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Okay, I guess I don't see what your getting at. Dependent on one another? I don't see anybody saying that. We are saying that if a Monster Effect Special Summons a monster that it makes it ineligible for targeting by Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment.

Jowgen + Call of the Haunted however provides us a case in which the effect that special summons a monster resolves properly, but the monster is not special summoned properly. Thus, whether the monster is special summoned or not cannot be dependent on whether the effect that is to special summon the monster resolves (otherwise Call + Jowgen would not be able to stop the special summon of a monster).
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Effect resolution has nothing to do with this. As I said before, we're only looking at whether these two Counter Traps can be properly activated in reponse to an effect that includes a Special Summon in it's resolution. The answer is, they can't. Activating them in reponse to V Lord or Phoenix's effect would be in response to an effect resolution, not to a summmon.

Because of this the two events (the effect that special summons a monster and the special summon itself) must be independent events. As such, you should be able to activate a trap in responce to either one of them (This is why I believe that the current ruling on Monster Reborn VS Horn of Heaven is incorrect).
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Again lets not overlook the fact that were talking about Counter Trap Cards here. Counter Traps are very specific about ther timing and when thay can be properly activated. A summon wthin an effect resolution is improper timing for these two cards.

I realize you are using Jowgen and Call of the Haunted as an example, but its not comparable. That's an example of an effect resolving with effect. That happens all the time. But it doesn't give Counter Traps any precedence to be improperly activated.
 
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As has been stated many times now the use of Call/Jowgen is not actually "negating" a card that special summons it is simply "preventing" the summon from occuring. Call/Last Warrior will do the same thing. Call of the Haunted can summon many monsters with Continuous Effects that will prevent other things from happening in chain links that would resolve after Call resolves. Des Wombat will prevent damage to its owner from cards that resolve after it has been brought to the field, does that mean that you should be able to chain Trap of Board Eraser to a resolving Ring of Destruction? Of course not.
 
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http://edos.siteburg.com/articles/artcl13.html

That article is at least two years old.
Edo said:
The release of Duelist Legacy 4 changed some wordings on cards -- one of them being Ascending Horn (e. Horn of Heaven), and also relates to Declaration of God (e. Solemn Judgement).

The rulings of the card with the new wording (and this includes Declaration of God) is that you can now ONLY negate Special Summons that are brought out via their own, inherent effects.

What does this mean? Cards that use their own inherent effects to Special Summons them include the Gate Guardian, Dark Necrophia (e. Necrofear), the Necrophia cousins from Labyrinth of Nightmare, and even Giga Cyber (e. Megacyber). THESE are the cards that Horn/Declaration can negate.
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So the explanation all along from Konami is that it can only negate inherent summons. I don't see anything to do with chain resolution.
 
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Raijinili said:
http://edos.siteburg.com/articles/artcl13.html

That article is at least two years old.
So the explanation all along from Konami is that it can only negate inherent summons. I don't see anything to do with chain resolution.
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That's fine, but it is a "soft level" answer.

From a mechanical point of view, it is inconsistant. I've already explained (in detail) why MANY times...

It is this way simply because "they say so" which is fine.
 
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skey23 said:
Ok, I have to ask this.

Is the built-in 'reborning' ability of both "Vampire Lord" and "Phoenix" considered an inherent ability to Special Summon themselves?...:eek:....yes, I actually asked it...lol.
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Yes they do summon themselves. No it is not the same thing as what the rulings are referring to which is the Special Summon from hand ability of Dark Necrofear, BLS-Envoy, Gate Guardian, The Fiend Megacyber, these are distinctly different from the reborning abilities of Vampire Lord, Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys, Twin-Headed Behemoth and Fox Fire which activate in the graveyard and summon themselves when they resolve.
 
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Thank you very much for answering my question Anthonyj.

I asked only to get a response from one or more of the 'leaders' of this community, as I get the feeling that some people are now ONLY responding to questions/posts/whatever put forth by only those whom they deem 'worthy' to respond to.

I asked that question instead of simply stating the answer becuase it is highly conceivable that somebody could confuse the 'reborn' effect as an inherent or 'built-in' Special Summon.
So I figured I'd ask the question before anybody else did.

Again, thank you for answering my question.
 
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I have gotten an average of maybe four hours of sleep since school started in NYC. And I don't even go anymore. So if I ignore your question, it's because I'm too lazy to think, and other people would do it for me anyway.

Wait, I'm not a leader. I come here just to brag that I robbed Helpoemer316 blind. Why am I even answering that point?

Bah. Anyway, yes, the inherent summon I'm talking about is the special summoning caused by a monster's own effect. And no, this does not apply to Trap Monsters because it is a trap that summons them.

RoyaI Oppression said:
When "Vampire Lord" is Special Summoned by its effect, you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" to negate the Special Summon and destroy "Vampire Lord". If your "Vampire Lord" is destroyed in this way by the effect of a "Royal Oppression" card controlled by your opponent, then "Vampire Lord" was destroyed by a card controlled by your opponent, and is Special Summoned during your next Standby Phase.
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This was brought up before, in that linked topic.

We know that if the summon effect is negated, the monster stays in the graveyard and can't be destroyed. So if you claim that VLord's EFFECT, rather than its SUMMON, is negated, how would its effect trigger again if it wasn't destroyed?
 
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Ok, now I'm confused again...lol.

By Trap Monster, I assume you are referring to "Embodiment of Apophis". Or are you referring to the "Ojama" tokens as well?

Also, I understood your ruling post to mean the following:

Monsters like "BLS - EotB", "Fenrir", "Dark Necrofear", "Soul of Purity and Light", etc.., are the monsters being referred to in the 'inherent' Special Summoning. And that "Horn of Heaven" and "Solemn Judgment" can be used to negate those Special Summons.

I did NOT take it to include the 'reborn' ability of monsters such as "Vampire Lord", "Twin-Headed Behemoth", and the "Phoenix".

Was I mistaken?

[edit]Also, I believe that "Royal Oppression" ruling to be incorrect, since we already have been told that a monster that's in the Graveyard cannot be destroyed again while it's in the Graveyard ("Divine Wrath" rulings).
 
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This is an example of a previous erroneous ruling in need of correction. UDE is just painfully slow at removing some of these. When this ruling was made UDE had apparently not been informed that you could not "Destroy" a card in the graveyard. In fact I don't think this information was given to us until Flaming Eternity was released. Like I have said before we seem to only get further information on older cards when a newer card with a similar effect comes out.
 
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Painfully slow. That pretty much sums it up. How long was the Fiber Jar ruling sitting around that stated Monster Tokens were "destroyed" when Fiber Jar removed them from the field?

This will probably sit there for just as long confounding things as they always have. And here I thought we were going to have some consistancy.
 
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skey23 said:
I asked only to get a response from one or more of the 'leaders' of this community, as I get the feeling that some people are now ONLY responding to questions/posts/whatever put forth by only those whom they deem 'worthy' to respond to.

I asked that question instead of simply stating the answer becuase it is highly conceivable that somebody could confuse the 'reborn' effect as an inherent or 'built-in' Special Summon.
So I figured I'd ask the question before anybody else did.
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I don't know if it was myself that you were refering to (i don't consider myself a 'leader' of the community), but if it was, i do appologize. I am at work and can only pop in and out once and a while and didn't see the question. If it wasn't me, then ignore this.

I wish i could add more to anthonyj's statement, but it perfect.

I do however feel, that the rulings should be updated and expanded to include a wider variety of scenarios. They seem dated to me.
 
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