Some questions: Berserk Gorilla, Wave-Motion Cannon

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Madma

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1) Can Tragedy be activated after a Berserk Gorilla has been changed to defense position? Can it be activated before Berserk Gorilla is destroyed by its effect, or after?

2) Can Wave-Motion Cannon be send to the graveyard while Imperial Order is Active? And will its effect work ('cause in that moment it will be in the graveyard)?
 
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John Danker said:
Yup! What you have to remember is once a trap or spell card is activated it's effect leaves the card itself, the card becomes an "empty shell" The effect floats on the field waiting to resolve.

The wording on Jinzo (for example) is misleading that way. I can see why people think that it would be incapable of negating a card that is no longer on the field but has yet to resolve.
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Exactly, that's why this debate about Wave Motion and Imperial started. And why we're questioning the lack of ability of Skill Drain to stop Exiled Force's effect.
 
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As Raijinili stated, Spells and Traps work differently than Monsters. Curtis even mentioned this on the mailing list in response to a few questions as well. That's just the way the mechanics work...
 
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densetsu_x said:
As Raijinili stated, Spells and Traps work differently than Monsters. Curtis even mentioned this on the mailing list in response to a few questions as well. That's just the way the mechanics work...
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Ok, let's see if I got it right...

A monster's effect cannot/will not/might not be negated by Skill Drain if the monster is NOT on the field at the time of resolution because of the text on Skill Drain that states on the field. Simple enough..makes perfect sense.

However, a Spell/Trap card's effect can/will/might be negated by Imperial Order/Jinzo/Spell Canceller if the card is NOT on the field at the time of resolution despite the text on those cards that state either face-up or on the field. Not that simple, doesn't make any sense, but I'll go with it.

Is this because the Monster effects don't 'linger' around?
 
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ok... then what if Skill Drain is on the field.. i use Tribes effect.. and chain (that quickplay spell that kills a monster but you lose your next draw phase)... will Tribes effect go through cuz it now in the graveyard?
 
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kingpinopie said:
ok... then what if Skill Drain is on the field.. i use Tribes effect.. and chain (that quickplay spell that kills a monster but you lose your next draw phase)... will Tribes effect go through cuz it now in the graveyard?
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Yes it will.
 
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kingpinopie said:
ok... then what if Skill Drain is on the field.. i use Tribes effect.. and chain (that quickplay spell that kills a monster but you lose your next draw phase)... will Tribes effect go through cuz it now in the graveyard?
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Correct.

Skill Drain negates effects when they try to "resolve" not when they are "activated" and Skill Drain can only negate monster effects "as long as they remain face-up on the field."

For instance you can Flip Summon Magician of Faith, then chain Ring of Destruction to the Flip Summon. Skill Drain can no longer negate the effect since the monster is no longer on the field when the effect "resolves"
 
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If Imperial Order is on the field, you can't activate Wave-Motion Cannon's effect.

Edit: never mind the WMC answer.
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This is an issue that was recently (the last week) being dicussed by GameRookie and others on Realms. I agree, unfortunately UDE is sticking to thier ruling. The same should also be true of Spell Canceller.

Ok, let's see if I got it right...

A monster's effect cannot/will not/might not be negated by Skill Drain if the monster is NOT on the field at the time of resolution because of the text on Skill Drain that states on the field. Simple enough..makes perfect sense.

However, a Spell/Trap card's effect can/will/might be negated by Imperial Order/Jinzo/Spell Canceller if the card is NOT on the field at the time of resolution despite the text on those cards that state either face-up or on the field. Not that simple, doesn't make any sense, but I'll go with it.

Is this because the Monster effects don't 'linger' around?
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Skill Drain in relation to Monster Effects should always be viewed differently than Imperial Order/Royal Decree/Jinzo/Spell Canceller in relation to Spell/Trap Effects.

Just to put it plainly, Skill Drain must actually "see" the Effect Monster that is generating the effect face-up when the effect starts to resolve in order for it to negate the effect.

Wording on Skill Drain is actually a lot more specific than the others, which is why it makes more sense.
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
Correct.

Skill Drain negates effects when they try to "resolve" not when they are "activated" and Skill Drain can only negate monster effects "as long as they remain face-up on the field."

For instance you can Flip Summon Magician of Faith, then chain Ring of Destruction to the Flip Summon. Skill Drain can no longer negate the effect since the monster is no longer on the field when the effect "resolves"
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Do you mean chain to the flip effect?
 
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novastar said:
Skill Drain in relation to Monster Effects should always be viewed differently than Imperial Order/Royal Decree/Jinzo/Spell Canceller in relation to Spell/Trap Effects.
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Why? Skill Drain negates monster effects. The other cards negate Spell/Trap effects. It's plain and simple, at least in my mind. So why are they treated differently? (I know, I know...Konami said so...lol)

novastar said:
Just to put it plainly, Skill Drain must actually "see" the Effect Monster that is generating the effect face-up when the effect starts to resolve in order for it to negate the effect.
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That makes PERFECT SENSE because of the text on Skill Drain that states "...the effects of all face-up Effect Monsters on the field are negated." Not only do they have to be face-up, but they also have to be on the field, so if either condition is not met, "Skill Drain"s effect does not work. Makes absolute perfect sense to me!...now for the big one...

novastar said:
Wording on Skill Drain is actually a lot more specific than the others, which is why it makes more sense.
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Let's look at that statement and the card texts shall we...Yes, let's...

"Skill Drain" - "As long as this card remains on the field, the effects of all face-up Effect Monsters on the field are negated." You are definitely correct on the clarity of wording on this card. No argument here.

"Imperial Order" - "As long as this card remains face-up on the field, negate the effects of all Spell Cards on the field." This too seems pretty clear. The Spell card must be on the field in order for this effect to work. The only difference in wording is the fact that 'face-up' is missing from this effect. Now that may be the key to this entire thing. Since you're saying the effect of Spell cards have a 'lingering' ability even if the Spell card is removed from the field, the effect is still 'on the field' if you will, then that also makes sense, but only if that is the case here.

"Jinzo" - "As long as this card remains face-up on the field, Trap Cards cannot be activated. The effects of all face-up Trap Cards are negated." Again, we see the face-up restriction; however, there is no mention of them having to be on the field. Face-up to me implies it must be face up at resolution, or already face-up to be negated by "Jinzo". So the "Waboku" example John gave earlier surprises me to be correct.

"Royal Decree" - "As long as this card remains face-up on the field, negate the effects of all Trap Cards except this card on the field." Ah, now if that's not clear, I don't know what is. There is no field restriction on this one. All trap card effects are negated. It doesn't matter where the trap card is. Now if "Royal Decree" was mixed into the "Waboku" example John gave, I'd agree that "Waboku"s effect is negated. No question about it.

"Spell Canceller" - "As long as this card remains face-up on the field, Spell Cards cannot be activated. The effects of all Spell Cards are also negated." Again, no issues with this card. It has the all Spell Cards clause. No field restrictions, or face-up restrictions, simply all Spell Cards, just like "Royal Decree"s effect.

Ok, does anybody see a pattern here? There's two for each right, two for Trap and two for Spell. One set negates ALL of the card type. The other set negates ONLY those that are face-up on the field. I don't think this is a coincidence. Also the fact that the cards are mixed as well. You have a monster that negates ALL Spell Card effects and a Trap card that negates ALL Trap Card effects. You have a monster that negates ONLY the Trap Card effects for Traps on the field, and a Trap Card that ONLY negates the Spell Card effects for Spell Cards on the field. It looks to me that it was 'designed' that way.

Forgive me, I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just stating the way I see things and what makes sense to me. I can argue with the rulings til I'm blue in the face, but it won't make a difference unless the rulings get changed.

I think I'm done for the night now...lol.
 
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"Royal Decree" - "As long as this card remains face-up on the field, negate the effects of all Trap Cards except this card on the field." Ah, now if that's not clear, I don't know what is. There is no field restriction on this one. All trap card effects are negated. It doesn't matter where the trap card is. Now if "Royal Decree" was mixed into the "Waboku" example John gave, I'd agree that "Waboku"s effect is negated. No question about it.

"Spell Canceller" - "As long as this card remains face-up on the field, Spell Cards cannot be activated. The effects of all Spell Cards are also negated." Again, no issues with this card. It has the all Spell Cards clause. No field restrictions, or face-up restrictions, simply all Spell Cards, just like "Royal Decree"s effect.
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Unfortunately this is incorrect. This is why i stated that the wording on these cards is less clear.

All of them, Imperial Order/Royal Decree/Jinzo/Spell Canceller only negate effects on the field.

They should all really state something more along these lines:

"Negate the effects of all [Spell or Trap] Cards activated and/or face-up on the field."

That would be more of a true representation of what/how they actually negate.

Hope that helps
 
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And Spell/Trap differ too becasue they will remain on the field for thier resolution as an "Empty Shell" whereas monsters will activate for costs and immediatly be sent to the Graveyard.
 
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Raijinili said:
Spells and Traps are inherently different from monsters in that their effects don't stick to the cards (unless the cards are permanent).

Also, both answers to the original questions are wrong.

If Berserk Gorilla changes to Defense position, it will destroy itself and set "destroyed monster" as the last event. You cannot activate Tragedy as it has missed its timing.

If Imperial Order is on the field, you can't activate Wave-Motion Cannon's effect.

Edit: never mind the WMC answer.
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OK, Tragedy cannot be activated when a Berserk Gorilla change its battle position and is destroyed by it effect. And I understand even the reason why Skill Drain doesn't negate Exiled Force and Imperial Order negates a spell card in he graveyard instead...

Now...

Why now are you telling me the effect of Wave-Moton Cannon cannot be activated while Imperial Order is on the field?
 
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Madma said:
OK, Tragedy cannot be activated when a Berserk Gorilla change its battle position and is destroyed by it effect. And I understand even the reason why Skill Drain doesn't negate Exiled Force and Imperial Order negates a spell card in he graveyard instead...

Now...

Why now are you telling me the effect of Wave-Moton Cannon cannot be activated while Imperial Order is on the field?
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Sending Wave-Motion Cannon to the Graveyard is the cost to activate its "effect". While Imperial Order is active, all effects of Spell Cards are NEGATED. Even though the cost can still be paid, the effect does not activate.
 
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Madma said:
Right, but Raijinili says that the effect cannot be activated, he doesn't say it cannot resolve!

It's a big difference...
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Wave-Motion Cannon when it is FIRST activated (placed on the field) is to count Standby turns, but that is not yet its effect.

The complete resolution (activation of its effect) is to send the card to the Graveyard AND inflict damage to your opponent per Standby turns counted. With Imperial Order active, you cannot complete the full resolution of WMC's effect, as the damage portion Disappears due to Spell Cards effect's being negated.
 
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I would like to point out that berserk gorrilla's effect of destroying it self is continous and can not be chained to. You can stall activate tragety in response to berserk gorrila going to defense and killing itself but berserk gorrilla has already killed itself.

Someone please correct me if i'm wrong. I'm not entirely sure about this since no one caught this one earlier.
 
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exiledforcefreak said:
I would like to point out that berserk gorrilla's effect of destroying it self is continous and can not be chained to. You can stall activate tragety in response to berserk gorrila going to defense and killing itself but berserk gorrilla has already killed itself.

Someone please correct me if i'm wrong. I'm not entirely sure about this since no one caught this one earlier.
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Actually Raijinili had answered that earlier - Message #17 in the thread:
Raijinili said:
Spells and Traps are inherently different from monsters in that their effects don't stick to the cards (unless the cards are permanent).

Also, both answers to the original questions are wrong.

If Berserk Gorilla changes to Defense position, it will destroy itself and set "destroyed monster" as the last event. You cannot activate Tragedy as it has missed its timing.
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Dillie-O had previously said that you could use Tradgedy in this scenario, this was what Raijinili was refering to.
 
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