Stumbling & Tragedy

[DaAmazing1]

If Stumbling is active on the field and Tragedy was set a turn earlier, Exiled Force is summoned. According to the official ruling Stumbling is chain 1, can Stumbling be chain 2? Or do you have to wait for the Stumbling to resolve before activating Tragedy? And if you do wait can the turn player claim priority for Exiled Force's effect?

 

[novastar]

If Stumbling is active on the field and Tragedy was set a turn earlier, Exiled Force is summoned. According to the official ruling Stumbling is chain 1, can Stumbling be chain 2? Or do you have to wait for the Stumbling to resolve before activating Tragedy?

You have to wait for Stumbling to resolve and actually change Exiled Force into Defence Position. In order for Tragedy to have the correct timing, the actual event (monster being changed to DEF) must occur first.

And if you do wait can the turn player claim priority for Exiled Force's effect?

People will argue this, but my answer to this is no, you cannot use Exiled Force's effect before Tragedy.

The reason is because once Stumbling resolves you have a Response timing that results from that, and only Spell Speed 2 or higher effects can be activated at that point.

 

[DaAmazing1]

So what your saying is that you have to give the opposing player a chance to respond to the resolution of Stumbling? I was under the understanding that yugioh didn't allow for that....

 

[densetsu_x]

It's because a condition was met that would allow "Tragedy" to be activated. The last thing to happen is "Monster turned from attack to defense position" so technically, both players have the chance to respond to that before any action is taken.

Further, if you want another way to destroy the monster, use "Trap Hole" or "Bottomless Trap Hole" instead. Those can be activated in a chain to "Stumbling"'s effect to destroy the monster before the opponent could do anything. "Stumbling" is quite an under-rated card that can shut-down the "Priority" for the turn player with regards to Ignition Effects.

 

[DaAmazing1]

Cool... So the player that summoned Exiled Force lost thier chance to use priority. I Thinks I'm going to abuse this...

 

[densetsu_x]

It's just because "Stumbling" uses the chain while cards like "Level Limit - Area B" do not. The "why" is because "Stumbling" only activates in response to a successful Normal/Tribute, Flip, or Special Summon unlike "Level Limit - Area B" which has no condition like that (it's always active). So since it uses the chain, only Speed 2/3 effects can be used as a response thereby preventing your opponent from activating any Ignition effect after the summon. They have to wait until the chain resolves first. So if they brought out "Tribe-Infecting Virus" while "Stumbling" was on the field and you had "Bottomless Trap Hole" set...

Keep in mind the chain would still go off even if the monster summoned is immune to Spell Cards (like "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6"). The monster would stay in Attack position in that case.

 

[masterwoo0]

Cool... So the player that summoned Exiled Force lost thier chance to use priority. I Thinks I'm going to abuse this...

Oh yeah! Big time! If Exiled Force falls on a chain link when he is summoned, its too late to use his effect and he can be Torrential'd, Trap Holed, etc.

 

[DaAmazing1]

So same senerio but with Level Limit - Area B won't work. I tell you yugioh rulings are getting more and more complicated. It's hard for me to even keep track anymore.

 

[novastar]

So what your saying is that you have to give the opposing player a chance to respond to the resolution of Stumbling? I was under the understanding that yugioh didn't allow for that....

Where did you here that? This game is all about action/event -> response.

The reason you can't use Exiled Force is because it is a Ignition Effect which can only be activated when the chain is empty and there is no response timing. Unless directly after a summon, which is what Summoning Priority is.

 

[novastar]

So same senerio but with Level Limit - Area B won't work. I tell you yugioh rulings are getting more and more complicated. It's hard for me to even keep track anymore.

Well Level Limit is ruled as a Continuous Effect not a Trigger.

So it would switch Exiled automatically, but you could still use Exiled's effect and then Tragedy could be chained to it. This would all occur during the Summon Response Chain.

 

[densetsu_x]

It's just because of the way the card is written (literally, you HAVE to look at the fine print):

Stumbling
Continuous Spell

As long as this card remains face-up on the field, any monster that is Normal Summoned, Flip Summoned or Special Summoned successfully is changed to Defense Position.

Level Limit - Area B
Continuous Spell

All face-up Level 4 or higher monsters on the field are changed to Defense Position and remain in Defense Position as long as this card is active.

The text on "Stumbling" is in response to a Successful Summon so it has a "timing issue" as to when it activates (despite being a Continuous Spell... that just means the card stays on the field but isn't always active). "Level Limit - Area B" doesn't have that qualification.

The only card I can think of to differentiate the 2 is "Big Shield Gardna". If he's attacked while in defense position, face-down, his effect will put him into attack position afterwards. Now if "Stumbling" were on the field, nothing would happen since he wasn't Summoned in any fashion. But if "Level Limit - Area B" were on the field, that effect would put him back into defense position immediately afterwards.

 

[daivahataka]

It's just because of the way the card is written (literally, you HAVE to look at the fine print):

Stumbling
Continuous Spell

As long as this card remains face-up on the field, any monster that is Normal Summoned, Flip Summoned or Special Summoned successfully is changed to Defense Position.

Level Limit - Area B
Continuous Spell

All face-up Level 4 or higher monsters on the field are changed to Defense Position and remain in Defense Position as long as this card is active.

The text on "Stumbling" is in response to a Successful Summon so it has a "timing issue" as to when it activates (despite being a Continuous Spell... that just means the card stays on the field but isn't always active). "Level Limit - Area B" doesn't have that qualification.

The only card I can think of to differentiate the 2 is "Big Shield Gardna". If he's attacked while in defense position, face-down, his effect will put him into attack position afterwards. Now if "Stumbling" were on the field, nothing would happen since he wasn't Summoned in any fashion. But if "Level Limit - Area B" were on the field, that effect would put him back into defense position immediately afterwards.

Don't think Stumbling would affect Spell Canceller so, since if it's effect is a response to the summon and uses the chain it would be like trying to respond to Jinzo's summon with Zero Gravity.

 

[novastar]

Really, there is no logic for Stumbling vs. Level Limit, and they both should be continuous effects. Stumbling is not written as a Trigger, and frankly i'm very surprised that it is ruled as such.

A Trigger templating is "When(ever) [this_event] occurs, do [this_action]"

The current wording sounds more akin to effects such as Berserk Gorilla, GAF and the like...

"any monster that is Normal Summoned, Flip Summoned or Special Summoned successfully is changed to Defense Position."

The word "is" suggests existance and is generally use for conditional continuous effects, like Berserk Gorilla.

 

[daivahataka]

At times the logic of Yu-Gi-Oh rulings reminds me of an episode of Invader Zim, where Zim decides to muck about with a temporal displacement machine, specifically the line:

"Wait, if you destroyed Dib in the past, then he won't ever be your enemy, then you won't have to send a robot back to destroy him, and then he will be your enemy so you will have to send a robot back-"
*GIR's head explodes*

 

[skey23]

At times the logic of Yu-Gi-Oh rulings reminds me of an episode of Invader Zim, where Zim decides to muck about with a temporal displacement machine, specifically the line:

And then we'd all end up with little pink pigs as brains.

 

[masterwoo0]

Don't think Stumbling would affect Spell Canceller so, since if it's effect is a response to the summon and uses the chain it would be like trying to respond to Jinzo's summon with Zero Gravity.

Spell Canceller would still switch to defense when summoned because continuous effects already activated form the first link of the chain, so Spell Canceller would be summoned, changed to defense, then cancel Stumbling.

In the case of Jinzo, you cannot activate a Trap or Quick-Play once a monster has been removed for a Tribute Summon. So if your opponent was anticipating the Normal Summoning of Jinzo, his timing is too late to activate Zero Gravity.

Also, Level Limit - Area B doesnt say that any monsters Level 4 or higher are to be summoned in defense, it only means that once they are summoned, if they are summoned face-up attack, they will immediately be forced to go to defense. That said, you can still summon a monster in attack position and change battle positions for effects that require them to be in attack and then back to defense.

Level Limit - Area B only prevents a Level 4 and above monster from remaining in attack when the battle position changes from defense to attack, or when summoned in attack.

 

[densetsu_x]

Actually, since "Stumbling" uses the chain, "Spell Canceller"'s effect would activate and resolve first so it would be immune to the effect. For "Spell Canceller" to be considered successfully summoned, it's own continuous effect resolves first. In cases like "Level Limit - Area B" and related cards ("Skill Drain"), I believe those effects all resolve before the monster is considered successfully summoned(I would say during that same mimi-window that you could activate "Solemn Judgment" and "Horn of Heaven").

 

[Raigekick]

In addition, "Spell Canceller" and "Level Limit - Area B" are both continuous effect, so time stamp is used here. Since "Spell Canceller" is the most recent continuous effect activated, it will resolve first. Then "Level Limit - Area B" will be next, but it will already be negated.

 

[densetsu_x]

No. Timestamps have no effect on Continuous Spell/Trap vs. Continuous Monster Effects. A face-up "Level Limit - Area B" will turn "Spell Canceller" into defense position before it gets negated (and we both know it couldn't be activated if "Spell Canceller" is on the field). "Stumbling" is different since it uses the chain in order to resolve so in that case the continuous effect of the monster resolves beforehand.

 

[novastar]

No. Timestamps have no effect on Continuous Spell/Trap vs. Continuous Monster Effects. A face-up "Level Limit - Area B" will turn "Spell Canceller" into defense position before it gets negated (and we both know it couldn't be activated if "Spell Canceller" is on the field). "Stumbling" is different since it uses the chain in order to resolve so in that case the continuous effect of the monster resolves beforehand.

Actually Raigekick is on the right track with Level Limit vs. Spell Canceller, unfortunately its the opposite resolution.

Similar to Jinzo vs. Skill Drain. Since both effect are dependant you would resolve then in Timstamp order. The earliest Timestamp is resolved first and so on. So Level Limit- Area B applies first, switching Spell Canceller into DEF Position (since it is the earlier Timestamp), and then Spell Canceller negates it.

In the case of Stumbling, since it is a Trigger and must wait till Spell Canceller is successfully summoned, it will be negated by Spell Canceller's effect. Infact it will not even Trigger, as no Spell Card's can activate while it is face-up.

Hope that helps