The End Of Anubis & Exiled Force

[daleotar]

In the game F.A.Q., in the second paragraph the text about Skill Drain says:

? "Skill Drain" negates the effects of face-up Effect Monsters on the field, but does not negate effects ?that activate in the Graveyard?, such as "Witch of the Black Forest", "Sangan", "Mystic Tomato", "Giant Rat", "Exiled Force", "Sinister Serpent", and "Vampire Lord".

That text says in a clear form that the ?effect? of Exiled Force activates in the graveyard in a very textual form, that which confirmate that as the effect of Exiled Force activates in the graveyard, The End of Anubis negates this effect.

To confirm these text, I say that one thing in many cards is activate the effect, other thing is the cost of effect's activation, and other thing is the activation of the card; if a card have a cost to activate, the player pays first the cost and if the opponent not chain a counter trap, its ?effect? resolves in a correct form, that is to say, first goes the cost and after the activation of the ?effect? of the card, ?that is different that the activation of a card?, that is to say that Exiled Force effect have a cost, and then, if the opponent not chain Divine Wrath, the effect activates normally, and then, at that time, Exiled Force is in the graveyard when the effect of destroy 1 monster on the field is activated.

Please respond me in this forum, because,in tournament many times I have lost because according to the approach of a judge the "effect" of Exiled Force not activates in the graveyard.

Please, is better if an official upperdeck judge responds me, to confirm my question in legal form.

David Tarazona
YU-GI-OH UpperDeck Judge LEVEL 2

Thank you

 

[daivahataka]

And if costs and activation are simultaneous, why isn't the cost refunded when the activation and effect of a card is negated? It isn't refunded, because you pay the cost first, then you may activate the card's effect.

It isn't refunded since there'd be no risk in activating cards/effects otherwise. Even if the cost were paid before the activation you wouldn't be any more/less entitiled to a refund if the activation is negated. The only exception I know of regarding refunds of activation costs are if there's a mis-play and the game has to be reset to the way it was before the misplay.
It's like with a Pay-As-You-Go mobile, if you send a text and it never reaches the person you don't get the cost refunded.

 

[John Danker]

And if costs and activation are simultaneous, why isn't the cost refunded when the activation and effect of a card is negated? It isn't refunded, because you pay the cost first, then you may activate the card's effect.

Because the activation is complete and the negating card chains to the completion of the activation.

You buy (cost) stock (it's activated) Once you've paid the price it's activated. It's eligable for gain or loss.

2 seconds later the stock plummets $32 a share (response) because all the other investors know that your company has been involved in every shady business deal in the last 3 years on a global scale...any profit you hoped to gain is negated.

Do you get a refund on your purchase of stock?

 

[jdos]

And if costs and activation are simultaneous, why isn't the cost refunded when the activation and effect of a card is negated? It isn't refunded, because you pay the cost first, then you may activate the card's effect.

Costs are non-refundable because the rules state that they are non-refundable. It has nothing to do with timing. Konami could just as easily have said that costs were paid at the end of the third turn after you activate a card (whether it was negated or not) and that still wouldn't negate the fact that they are non-refundable because Konami says so. Timing is irrelevant.

 

[masterwoo0]

That's what makes "The Creator" an even better play since the discard is part of his effect. If his effect is negated, you dont send a card to the Graveyard.

 

[novastar]

And if costs and activation are simultaneous, why isn't the cost refunded when the activation and effect of a card is negated? It isn't refunded, because you pay the cost first, then you may activate the card's effect.

If cost and activation were not simultanious, then why does an effect like Jinzo prevent you from paying cost?

It's an equally ridiculous statement.

No game I know of refunds a paid cost, although YGO seems to be the only one that negates both activation and effect.

 

[papewaio]

If cost and activation were not simultanious, then why does an effect like Jinzo prevent you from paying cost?

It's an equally ridiculous statement.

No game I know of refunds a paid cost, although YGO seems to be the only one that negates both activation and effect.

This is taken straight from the Official Rulebook version 5.0

Pay a Cost
Paying a cost means an action like discarding or sending a card to the Graveyard from your hand, or paying Life Points, in order to Summon a monster or activate an effect. You have to pay any costs before you declare the activation of the card. Even if the activation of the card is negated, you cannot get a refund of the cost that you have paid.

As to the Jinzo situation you describe, Jinzo prevents you from activating a trap card. If you cannot activate it, you cannot pay the cost to activate it. This is different from a card like Imperial Order that just negates the effect. Spell cards can still be activated, and thus will have their costs paidd first, but their effects will be negated.

 

[novastar]

Thats it...quote me the "Basic" Rulebook.

Now there is a Comprehensive Document for ya...

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

This is taken straight from the Official Rulebook version 5.0

Pay a Cost
Paying a cost means an action like discarding or sending a card to the Graveyard from your hand, or paying Life Points, in order to Summon a monster or activate an effect. You have to pay any costs before you declare the activation of the card. Even if the activation of the card is negated, you cannot get a refund of the cost that you have paid.

Where this cost is paid is where it's activation is going to originate from.

Cost and activation are simultaneous. Where the card goes is not the case here. You tribute Exiled Force to activate it's effect. This all takes place on the field. The Exiled Force card itself is not it's actvation or it's own effect, you simply tribute Exiled Force to activate it's effect. I'm assuming Exiled Force is an Ignition Effect.

 

[FiendMaster]

NOTE: *Edited*

April 29, 2005

 

[papewaio]

Where this cost is paid is where it's activation is going to originate from.

Cost and activation are simultaneous. Where the card goes is not the case here. You tribute Exiled Force to activate it's effect. This all takes place on the field. The Exiled Force card itself is not it's actvation or it's own effect, you simply tribute Exiled Force to activate it's effect. I'm assuming Exiled Force is an Ignition Effect.

Ok, if the location of activation is where cost is paid, then why doesn't EoA negate Peten? Its cost is paid in the Graveyard. By your logic, its effect should activate in the graveyard then, and EoA should negate it. However, it has been ruled otherwise. Removing Peten is a cost. Once that cost is paid, you can activate the effect. At this point, Peten is in the RFG area, so his effect is not negated by EoA.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Ok, if the location of activation is where cost is paid, then why doesn't EoA negate Peten? Its cost is paid in the Graveyard. By your logic, its effect should activate in the graveyard then, and EoA should negate it. However, it has been ruled otherwise. Removing Peten is a cost. Once that cost is paid, you can activate the effect. At this point, Peten is in the RFG area, so his effect is not negated by EoA.

If Exiled Force is a "Graveyard Effect", why doesn't the "owner" of the graveyard get the effect?

Think about this, if Player1 tributes Exiled Force, but it is placed within Player2's "graveyard" being that he owns the card, why doesn't Player2 retain the effect?

If Exiled Force is truly a Graveyard Effect, then that would mean Player1 could tribute Player2's Witch of the Black Forest, and Player1 would "get" the effect.

 

[novastar]

Ok, if the location of activation is where cost is paid, then why doesn't EoA negate Peten? Its cost is paid in the Graveyard. By your logic, its effect should activate in the graveyard then, and EoA should negate it. However, it has been ruled otherwise. Removing Peten is a cost. Once that cost is paid, you can activate the effect. At this point, Peten is in the RFG area, so his effect is not negated by EoA.

EoA does negate Peten, why UDE ruled it otherwise is beyond reason.

Peten is a Graveyard Trigger, this should be well understood by anyone who understands the game.

 

[Raijinili]

And yet... and yet...

Wow, novastar, you just settled in with the rulings a few months ago? Because you're resisting these recent changes more than I've ever seen you fight.

 

[densetsu_x]

If Exiled Force is a "Graveyard Effect", why doesn't the "owner" of the graveyard get the effect?

Think about this, if Player1 tributes Exiled Force, but it is placed within Player2's "graveyard" being that he owns the card, why doesn't Player2 retain the effect?

If Exiled Force is truly a Graveyard Effect, then that would mean Player1 could tribute Player2's Witch of the Black Forest, and Player1 would "get" the effect.

As I said in the CotD review... the difference is the kind of activation. E-Force is an Ignition effect... the person manually activating it get's the effect. Witch and Critter are Trigger effects. They activate after the owner has already resumed control of them.

 

[novastar]

And yet... and yet...

Wow, novastar, you just settled in with the rulings a few months ago? Because you're resisting these recent changes more than I've ever seen you fight.

With this activation issue yes, i completely disagree with them. I've been judging and studying rules for about 3 yrs, so am i just settling in? no...

I was a away for a bit, so the Peten issue was something i just recently saw. I am not so much resisting the rulings, i just see the error in it. Go and ask GameRookie if you like, he'll tell you the same thing...

There are not multiple ways of activation, there are many types of effects and cards, but activation is activation (be it card or effect) and the process should be standard accross the board.