The old problem... Response window!

[Dr Sin]

Okay, I admit: It's kind of scaring me.

And it's a old discussion, that doesn't have a definitive answer yet. And (worst thing) it will increase...

The old (and sometimes boring) response window thing. As Gadgets finally hit the stores, I believe cards that can cause trouble regarding this issue will be more played: EC, for example.
It's now a common, and help Gadgets, since it acts like a much (and really much) less powered Shrink to us (not because of it's effect, but because it makes possible little Gadgets kill in battle things like Monarchs and big monsters).
So the old scenario came to mind:

TP is in his Battle Step, with 1 face-up Green Gadget, 1 card in hand (EC) and no set cards. NTP has 1 Zaborg in attack position, 1 set s/t (Sak Armor) and no cards in hand.
TP declares his GG is attacking Zaborg and passes. NTP passes too (assuming opponent is doing this because he has Pot of Avarice in hand, and need one more monster in the grave... waste his Sak then would be a bad play).
1st problem: some people say BS is imeddiately ended, because both passed. I believe BS doesn't end yet, because multiple chains are allowed in this phase (I will not go on and put more reasons... this is enough right now)

Assuming BS they are still in BS, now TP activates his EC, targeting Zaborg (changing postion effect) and NTP tries to activate Sak at this point.
2nd problem: Again I ask, is this legal? I believe it's not, because they are in a non-response window, that is not directly linked to the attack, so cards like Sak, WRuin, Magic Cylinder, Mirror Force can not be activated. But the opposite argument also exists, even after both passed, there is still a connection to the attack, so Sak can still be activated.
The problem is the lack of an official answer...

What do you think?

Thanks in advance and sorry to be asking this again...

 

[Martok]

After both players pass priority, the Game State is cleared, and attack-response cards like Sakuretsu cannot be activated. But cards without activation requirements (like EC) can still be activated, since the Battle step is not over yet.

It's correct that this has not been officially announced yet, but it's been answered... semi-officially (for lack of a better word).

 

[Duelmaster]

Okay, I admit: It's kind of scaring me.

And it's a old discussion, that doesn't have a definitive answer yet. And (worst thing) it will increase...

The old (and sometimes boring) response window thing. As Gadgets finally hit the stores, I believe cards that can cause trouble regarding this issue will be more played: EC, for example.
It's now a common, and help Gadgets, since it acts like a much (and really much) less powered Shrink to us (not because of it's effect, but because it makes possible little Gadgets kill in battle things like Monarchs and big monsters).
So the old scenario came to mind:

TP is in his Battle Step, with 1 face-up Green Gadget, 1 card in hand (EC) and no set cards. NTP has 1 Zaborg in attack position, 1 set s/t (Sak Armor) and no cards in hand.
TP declares his GG is attacking Zaborg and passes. NTP passes too (assuming opponent is doing this because he has Pot of Avarice in hand, and need one more monster in the grave... waste his Sak then would be a bad play).
1st problem: some people say BS is imeddiately ended, because both passed. I believe BS doesn't end yet, because multiple chains are allowed in this phase (I will not go on and put more reasons... this is enough right now)

Assuming BS they are still in BS, now TP activates his EC, targeting Zaborg (changing postion effect) and NTP tries to activate Sak at this point.
2nd problem: Again I ask, is this legal? I believe it's not, because they are in a non-response window, that is not directly linked to the attack, so cards like Sak, WRuin, Magic Cylinder, Mirror Force can not be activated. But the opposite argument also exists, even after both passed, there is still a connection to the attack, so Sak can still be activated.
The problem is the lack of an official answer...

What do you think?

Thanks in advance and sorry to be asking this again...

Multiply chains can be made during the Battle Step. But you only got 1 chain to respond to the summons. You could also use that chain for other effect that don't respond to an attack.

If you don't make a chain (neither does you opponent) than you lost your chance to activate an effect in the Battel Step.

If you made a chain after the attack was declared and that chain resolves. Then it's not legal to activate effects like Sakuretsu Armor, Magic Cylinder, Mirror Force etc... on a new chain.


The judgelist is not offical but what they say is 'true'. There was a post from Dan about this subject. I'll look if I can find it.

 

[masterwoo0]

Mutilple chains can be created in the Battle Step once a legal chain has resolved. If both players pass their chance to create a chain in the Battle Step, then it passes on to the Damage Step, and Enemy Controller cannot be activated.

Example

TP declares an attack on Nimble Momonga (Attack Position) with Cyber End Dragon, and uses Priority to activate Enemy Controller and change him to Defense.

Opponent chains Waboku to Enemy Controller

TP chains Trap Jammer to Waboku

Chain Resolves

TP does not activate any further effects and passes Priority

Opponent uses his Priority and activates Gravity Bind

This is a example of multiple chains. Consecutive Passes after a attack has been declared means the Battle progresses to the Damage Step.

 

[skey23]

Sorry woo0, but martok's answer is the correct one. You do not automatically move into the Damage Step when both players pass in the attack response window.

Basically, you are both ONLY passing on directly responding to the Attack. You have not agreed to move into the Damage Step.

 

[masterwoo0]

Sorry woo0, but martok's answer is the correct one. You do not automatically move into the Damage Step when both players pass in the attack response window.

Basically, you are both ONLY passing on directly responding to the Attack. You have not agreed to move into the Damage Step.

Skey23, the only reason it IS correct, is all either player has done was waste time, so effectively, it is the same as telling two people to take one step forward and neither of them move. Has anyone done anything to progress themselves past the last spot they stood at?

No.

So, you tell them again to take one step forward. Now they decide to move. What difference did it make when they moved if nothing occured inbetween the first time you told them and the second time.

No timing was lost (obviously), since the last thing to occur was the declaration of a Attack (since consecutive passes dont seem to count for anything), so again, what difference did it make but to stall out the game?

The Judge List answer, if that is the interpretation everyone is taking from it, is ridiculous, if you can make consecutive passes, but not advance the game.

 

[skey23]

No, you haven't wasted time. It's called strategy.

If I am going to attack and you have a set card, then I'm going to see if you'll activate it when I attack.

If you don't, then you're out of luck. If you do, then I just saved the card in my hand for something else, and you are now down one less "Sakuretsu Armor" or "Mirror Force", or whatever.

Btw...you need to clean up your PM box. I need to send you something.

 

[masterwoo0]

No, you haven't wasted time. It's called strategy.

Oh, I know that, but there needs to be more of a clarification on that, as it really isnt very clear.

Btw...you need to clean up your PM box. I need to send you something.

I did. When I got the Bot email saying my box was full.

 

[Dr Sin]

The reason that it would be better if after both pass the response window we could still activate effects and start a chain is that it would make all phases of the turn have the same structure, except the infamous Damage step (that tends to grow in importance now we have Gadgets).
Here we go again, I present the MP argument:

TP is in his MP1 and summons a monster. He pass and NTP pass. Should they go to Battle Phase directly? No. Why? Because MP1 is a phase that admits multiple chains and has no "must go on" point. And Draw Phase is like that, SB, MP2 and End phase. So, why would Battle Step be different? This way of thinking (in the BS, if both pass they must proceed immediately to DS) complicates the game IMO. I believe it's better to have the same pattern for all phases...

Well, the only thing I know is that it sounds like a pretty important question, and people at Judge List always answers things like: "oh, shouldn't we enjoy the game and have fun instead of asking this kind of things"?

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Sorry woo0, but martok's answer is the correct one. You do not automatically move into the Damage Step when both players pass in the attack response window.

Basically, you are both ONLY passing on directly responding to the Attack. You have not agreed to move into the Damage Step.

Didn't we have this same argument about a TP Normal Summoning, passing Priority, NTP passing and then, assuming the response window to be closed, TP activates a SS 2 card and NTP chaining a Trap Hole, or Torrential, or Bootmoless or some such thing? Isn't this the same thing? The big question is still (because I don't think this was resolved "officially"): If both players pass on priority, does a limited response window close completely, irregardless?

Apparently, what we're sayig here is yes. Good, now we can apply it to the summon-response window as well. I feel a lot better now.

 

[Dr Sin]

yes, we had. And there were people that said that this would be legal (summon Zaborg for example, pass, pass, TP activates MST still in his MP1 and NTP now activating BTH).
This sounds insane...

 

[densetsu_x]

yes, we had. And there were people that said that this would be legal (summon Zaborg for example, pass, pass, TP activates MST still in his MP1 and NTP now activating BTH).
This sounds insane...

Bad example since Zaborg is a trigger and an effect automatically activates. I get what you're trying to say though.

 

[John Danker]

There was a time when I would have disagreed with martok. Since speaking to Kevin at GenCon So. Cal. last summer though I agree with his answer.....and, no phase or step is ever ended until both players agree it's ended.

It's not a well documented scenario I must agree and there is reason why it is not but I can't go into it....yet.

 

[The Advocate]

No timing was lost (obviously), since the last thing to occur was the declaration of a Attack (since consecutive passes dont seem to count for anything), so again, what difference did it make but to stall out the game?

The Judge List answer, if that is the interpretation everyone is taking from it, is ridiculous, if you can make consecutive passes, but not advance the game.

If this is the case, then why didn't TP just declare his attack and play his spell/magic at the same time? Because he wanted to see if NTP would activate his face down; this is one of those rulings that may be technically correct but in reality is just dumb and of course this wouldn't be the only one. NTP has to not respond and say something like "and we enter the ds" and wait for TP to protest so NTP protects the right to activate his face-down, what a mess.

 

[Dr Sin]

It's interesting to see that some people thinks one way, some people another.
But, the main reason I believe after double pass TP could activate EC and NTP couldn't activate Sak or any other "when an attack is declared" sort of card is that it benefits the strategic aspect and is quite reasonable.
NTP had his opportunity to respond to the attack with appropriate "response window" cards. He passed it. But as BS admits multiple chains, I see no reason to not allow another activation opportunity for both players, but with the restriction of "response window" being closed. This makes sense, because many times in the judge list they stated that a phase can not end with both player agreeing.

 

[Tkwiget]

Previously I thought that after a player had initially activated and a chain was created with cards like Magic Cylinder or Sakuretsu Armor, I believed that cards like Book of Moon and Enemy Controller could later be activated only if the first response window was used (Declared Attack Responce). I got this idea from how a player only has access to Main Phase 2 if that player enters the Battle Phase.

Now I don't believe that above thought of mine. This is mainly due to thinking about it and talking to John.

Multiply chains can be made during the Battle Step. But you only got 1 chain to respond to the summons. You could also use that chain for other effect that don't respond to an attack.

That's funny that you say that Duelmaster. How it has been explained to me is that you can have two chains in response to a summoning. You can first initially negate the summoning and cause it to be a failed summoning or you can response to the successful summoning of the monsters.

P1 declares he's going to summon King Tiger Wanghu. P2 responds with Horn of Heaven and tributes one Sheep Token for its activation cost. P2 chains Solemn Judgment. Horn of Heaven is negated and King Tiger Wanghu is now considered to be successfully summoned. P2 responds with Bottomless Trap Hole. P1 chains Royal Decree.

Two chains in response to one summoning.

 

[skey23]

Careful with the terminology Tkwiget. There is only 1 response chain to a Summon. Cards like "Solemn Judgment" are used in response to the Summon declaration, not the actual summoning of the monster.

 

[Tkwiget]

Careful with the terminology Tkwiget. There is only 1 response chain to a Summon. Cards like "Solemn Judgment" are used in response to the Summon declaration, not the actual summoning of the monster.

Yeah, I missed that. We both know I know how Solemn and Horn work with summonings. I just forgot to put it in.

 

[chocoman]

can someone give me an example of a phase not proceding to the next after a dubble pass? Or is it safe to conclude that after a dubble pass the current phase or step is considered over because both players have shown no intent to prolong it by starting chains?

 

[Dr Sin]

can someone give me an example of a phase not proceding to the next after a dubble pass? Or is it safe to conclude that after a dubble pass the current phase or step is considered over because both players have shown no intent to prolong it by starting chains?

Yes, our beloved Main Phases 1 and 2.
TP is in his/ her MP1. He decides to special summon Cyber Dragon and passes. NTP passes too.
Obviously, this doesn't mean that TP (nor NTP) wants to proceed immediately to BP or EP.
TP can still perform a normal summon, activate spell/ trap cards, activate effects...
But if (in this same example) TP special summons CD and passes, NTP passes and TP passes again (saying to his opponent he wants to go to BP for example) and opponent also passes, then it's showed by proof that MP1 is over.