timing w/sak

[SS64]

ok
i have a grandmaster ninja suske on the field, my opp. has 1 goat token.

I declare my attck-> opp. does nothing->i cahin with Enemy Controller-

Can my opp. still active Sakuretsu Armor?
or has the timing been missed?

 

[Kyhotae]

You're not "magically" shifting to anything. Play is progressing. After you enter the Battle Phase, you have priority to activate card effects (just like any other phase). When you enter the Battle Step (as soon as you declare an attacking monster and an attack target, you are in the Battle Step), you again have priority to respond to the attack declaration, and so on. Each new step resets your priority.

 

[ygo doc]

As posted here, yes the turn player has priority to activate a spell speed 2 effect or higher at each Step of Battle Phase. This just means he gets to activate a spell speed 2 effect or higher first. The opponent still gets a chance to respond.

doc

 

[Tiso]

You're not "magically" shifting to anything. Play is progressing. After you enter the Battle Phase, you have priority to activate card effects (just like any other phase). When you enter the Battle Step (as soon as you declare an attacking monster and an attack target, you are in the Battle Step), you again have priority to respond to the attack declaration, and so on. Each new step resets your priority.

Read the link's diagram. We enter the Battle Phase. We have turn priority. Now before we even declare an attack we have some other form of priority EVEN BEFORE WE DECLARED AN ATTACK, then we move to Sub-Step 3 and declare our attack and what not. That is not only confusing, but contradictory. That is why I am not going to listen to some year old Battle Step diagram to begin with.

I already know that when I declare an attack, I have priority to activate a card first. Such as Hydrogeddon declares attack, I activate Rush Recklessly. Do you chain opponent? Not I attack with Hydrogeddon, I pass priority, opponent passes, ok you activated nothing so I now activate Call of the Haunted. Uh...... how are you not in the Damage Step if both passed up priority?

Even more confusing is the fact that we can somehow while in the Battle Step, which means our opponent has declared an attack is activate a bunch of cards, have a chain resolve, then start another chain, over and over for as long we can until that rsolves and then now we go to the Damage Step. That just makes no sense.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Read the link's diagram. We enter the Battle Phase. We have turn priority. Now before we even declare an attack we have some other form of priority EVEN BEFORE WE DECLARED AN ATTACK, then we move to Sub-Step 3 and declare our attack and what not. That is not only confusing, but contradictory. That is why I am not going to listen to some year old Battle Step diagram to begin with.

When we enter the main phase we have priority to activate a card, even before we summon a monster we have priority.

When we enter the standby phase or end phase we have priority to activate a card, even before we try to resolve any things that are supposed to be resolved in that phase we can activate something else.

There is no "other form of priority here. Priority is simply which player has the right of way. There will always be a player with priority when things are not happening automatically.

I already know that when I declare an attack, I have priority to activate a card first. Such as Hydrogeddon declares attack, I activate Rush Recklessly. Do you chain opponent? Not I attack with Hydrogeddon, I pass priority, opponent passes, ok you activated nothing so I now activate Call of the Haunted. Uh...... how are you not in the Damage Step if both passed up priority?

Burden of proof is on you, but you have no proof. You cannot prove that the damage step is entered automatically when both players pass, therefore we treat it the same as any phase.

Even more confusing is the fact that we can somehow while in the Battle Step, which means our opponent has declared an attack is activate a bunch of cards, have a chain resolve, then start another chain, over and over for as long we can until that rsolves and then now we go to the Damage Step. That just makes no sense.

It only makes sense because you've made bad assumptions, and you're attacking your assumptions.

Get your head out of the Video Games and into the real game you realize that things do not finish until both players agree its finished.

The Damage step is an exception since there is a limited number of things that can happen in any sub-step.

There is no limit on the Battle Step.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Hasn't this been the general consensus on the Level 3 list for a while now?

Even so, Tiso, I'm curious as to what kind of proof you need. The members of CoG aren't new at this, and have been working out the minutiae of things like these long before either one of us was a member here. The chart was put together with the help of some of the most knowledgeable people in Yu-Gi-Oh! Once more, your being told by three Level 3 judges, the highest and most difficult to obtain certification there is, that the information presented is accurate, and yet you still can't accept it. What more could you possibly need?

 

[Tiso]

When we enter the main phase we have priority to activate a card, even before we summon a monster we have priority.

When we enter the standby phase or end phase we have priority to activate a card, even before we try to resolve any things that are supposed to be resolved in that phase we can activate something else.

There is no "other form of priority here. Priority is simply which player has the right of way. There will always be a player with priority when things are not happening automatically.



Burden of proof is on you, but you have no proof. You cannot prove that the damage step is entered automatically when both players pass, therefore we treat it the same as any phase.



It only makes sense because you've made bad assumptions, and you're attacking your assumptions.

Get your head out of the Video Games and into the real game you realize that things do not finish until both players agree its finished.

The Damage step is an exception since there is a limited number of things that can happen in any sub-step.

There is no limit on the Battle Step.

Well obviously since I made no mention of video games, I will just respond with, get your head out the real game's ass. You have no proof to prove you are correct in your assumption on how it works. All I see is from the CoG people are contradictory statements, avoiding certain issues, bypassing other things in order to justify that you want to be right about something that you are not even sure of. Furthermore obviously the video game (2006) got everything wrong so never trust anything that happens in the game. Like when you draw a card, clearly that is wrong. But funny how the video game comes up when it was not mentioned. You people are funny and stuck in your ways.

 

[Digital Jedi]

http://www.cogonline.net/showthread.php?p=139421&highlight=video+game#post139421

Digital is this just assumption or does the rule book go into depth that this only applies "declaration type of cards?" If this is just the same battle step (declaring an attack) then how exactly would explain the above scenario when P2 was able to use Book of Moon? Here is an example, replace Sakuretsu Armor with Enemy Controller and have the monster go to Defense Position. You use Magic Jammer. Etc, etc. Now your opponent uses Book of Moon.

Not to mention what was laid out in the latest video game contradicts what you posted about the battle step to begin with and given the fact we have (player attacking) has priority how do you jump from declaring an attack, not wanting priority and your opponent passes to going into the damage step? Even more importantly, the reason I am more convinced that declaring an attack and battle step itself, while in the same current state of the attack are 2 completely different things. That Trap Card Bakura uses would be proof of that. It clearly states "You can only activate this in the Battle Step."

Yeah, that was one step too far.

 

[djp952]

Took ya long enough I've been waiting for him to push you over the edge for months.

<kidding -- seriously -- kidding>

I don't see this as being "overly Tiso", and aren't sure what's so bad about what you quoted, but I see the "head out of the real game's ass" in the prior remark.

Given nothing but this thread, I would have to say that it's an overreaction. BUT: This is Tiso, and we ALL know how much of a pain he is in general. He's been banned before, and will undoubtedly be again.

I'll stand by your judgment, DJ. If you need any reassurance you've done the right thing, consider yourself reassured. I don't even think any further evidence would be required, since again, this is Tiso we're talking about. If you banned a normally good user over this, that might be an issue LOL.

Tiso is much like pssvr in that it seems the less he has to do, the more annoying he gets. He can be rather pleasant and definately keeps conversations going, but those moments are few and far between.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, that's for sure.

<breathes in deeply and enjoys the silence>

 

[Kyhotae]

You have no proof to prove you are correct in your assumption on how it works.

Actually, the judges list post that YOU linked proves all our points quite nicely. You can activate multiple chains during the Battle Step, that post proves it.

All I see is from the CoG people are contradictory statements, avoiding certain issues, bypassing other things in order to justify that you want to be right about something that you are not even sure of.

Again, we are QUITE sure about what we're talking about here. We have the proof, as you so graciously linked. Also, no one has by-passed anything. Please quote a single point that wasn't addressed.

 

[djp952]

Actually, the judges list post that YOU linked proves all our points quite nicely. You can activate multiple chains during the Battle Step, that post proves it.


Again, we are QUITE sure about what we're talking about here. We have the proof, as you so graciously linked. Also, no one has by-passed anything. Please quote a single point that wasn't addressed.

Tiso isn't going to be commenting in this thread for a while. I strongly suggest everyone just ignore his previous statements and move on ...

 

[Kyhotae]

Yeah. I noticed that he got himself banned after I posted that. Sorry.

 

[Dr Sin]

Well, in despite of all the problems this thread had, I have some points I would like to comment:

Returning to the original point, a situation occoured in a important tournament here:

TP was in his Battle Step and had a face-up Blade Knight, a Enemy Controller in his hand and 3 other cards (irrelevants for the case).
NTP had 1 face-up Chiron the Mage and one set Sakuretsu Armor.

TP declared an attack with Blade to Chiron. TP passed his priority. As Blade atk was only 1600, NTP decided not to activate his Sak and passed. Then TP declared: "well, as you passed, I will now activate Enemy Controller". NTP tried to activate Sak at this point, but TP told him he could not do this.

I agree with this, since I believe they were in a "non-responsive window" at this time and even with the declaration of the attack being the last fact, both were given the oportunity to respond to it. And as the battle step continues and multiple chains can be done, this make sense. If NTP could activate Sak now he passed the "response window" it would not make sense with all other regular mechanics. But this is not, as far as I know, totally agreed.

What do you guys thinks about this?

 

[John Danker]

The activation of Sakuretsu Armor was completely legal....and q good move as well! The last thing to happen was the declaration of attack, Enemy Controler has not yet resolved.

 

[Dr Sin]

But John, the thing is, both passed the opportunity to respond directly to the attack. Doesn't that close the chance of cards like "when opponent declares an attack" being activated?

 

[John Danker]

No it does not, that thought pattern is something players have dreamed up from playing other TCGs, no where does it state in any rule book, FAQ, or the judge's list that two passes equals automatic advancement to the next step, as a matter of fact that has been proven otherwise as we know that multiple responses are allowable to an attack. The last thing to happen was STILL the declaration of attack making the timing correct.

All non-TP did was chain to Enemy Controler and the timing was correct for Sakuretsu Armor, the last thing to happen was the declaration of attack, Enemy Controler has not yet resolved.

 

[ygo doc]

John, you are correct in saying that Yu-Gi-Oh! does not have a defined "Summon Response Chain" or "Attack Declaration Chain"; however, I am still not certain if these chains or windows of opportunity do indeed exist, albeit without a specific name.

I'll refer you and other L3 judges to this message thread: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=7789. Pay close attention to Dan's post concerning priority and Jon Lacey's detailed step by step post. (sorry, if you're not an L3 judge, you won't be able to read these posts)

You and I discussed this briefly at the SJC and I meant to ask Jon his opinion. I have posted the question on the open judge site and never got an answer. There is definitely a discrepancy of opinions.

Like Dr. Sin, there are a number of judges that consider you to have a one time shot at responding to the attack declaration. If you pass, you miss that window of opportunity. Look at the very last post in that thread by Kevin Tewart. He specifically mentions "after the opportunity to use 'Negate Attack' expires." I'm inclined to believe there is a specific window of opportunity and when that window of time expires, independent of the last action to occur in the game state, that you cannot respond to the attack declaration.

Perhaps, we need to try to elicit another heated debate on the judge site to get a definitive answer...

doc

 

[John Danker]

Glenn, I just reviewed the post you're speaking of, take a look at the third post from the bottom by Dan, also take a look at the top line of the 6th post from the bottom by Dan. Unless I'm completely misinterpreting what has been said, until it's agreed upon by both players that damage step be entered into, a response to the attack can be activated.

I do see what you're saying about what Kevin said about the "Second half of the battle step"...but one could also interpret that to mean Negate Attack can't be used as a second response to an attack which we know it can't be....the post is unclear in that way.

Perhaps you and I best take this to PMs, sorry for those of you unable to view what we're talking about.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Imagine for a second that there were a normal spell card that could be activated in the battle step...

You can't use priority in a response situation to activate a normal spell card.

So how would you activate that spell card?

 

[John Danker]

Imagine for a second that there were a normal spell card that could be activated in the battle step...

You can't use priority in a response situation to activate a normal spell card.

So how would you activate that spell card?

I must have missed something, this post is in reference to what? I'm failing to see the relavance at this point in the discussion, please explain to me so I can understand?

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

I must have missed something, this post is in reference to what? I'm failing to see the relavance at this point in the discussion, please explain to me so I can understand?

Because there are cards that cannot be activated in a responsive window, there has to be the ability to leave that response window.

The last thing to happen eventually has to expire with summons, (even though nothing else happens). That estsablishes the norm, and then we don't have a reason to believe attack should be any different.

So if you're activating Enemy COntroller at the time you could activate a normal spell card, you would not be able to chain to it with a response-type card (like trap hole/ sakuretsu armor)