timing w/sak

[SS64]

ok
i have a grandmaster ninja suske on the field, my opp. has 1 goat token.

I declare my attck-> opp. does nothing->i cahin with Enemy Controller-

Can my opp. still active Sakuretsu Armor?
or has the timing been missed?

 

[John Danker]

If NTP agrees, and TP activates a normal spell card (ala the earlier referenced Block Attack), does that not CHANGE the idea that the last thing to "resolve" was the summons of a monster, as there is no prioriy response to the summon when you activate a normal spell card (pirority response to a summon includes spell speed 2, 3 or monster effects, not normal spell)? (Assuming this is the case) Then why can you not both agree that the monster is summoned and both have allowed the response to summon window to close and say, "not in response to my summon, but as a seperate part of my main phase, I activate this spell speed 2 effect", and not allow a chain that is a response to a summon that you both agree the timing has passed?

Your statement, is "logical" however, I've been trying to get confirmation on this on both judge's lists for many months and have come up with a big fat zero resonses from UDE officials.

On another note, going back to the previous post about attacking: It was always my understanding that there was a "declaration of attack" moment and then an actual attack moment, also known as "attack goes through" (which is VERY easy to recognize......

It's most easily recognized when attacking a face up or face down monster when both players agree to enter the damage step.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

It's most easily recognized when attacking a face up or face down monster when both players agree to enter the damage step.

Yes, I'm trying to get to a point after the declaration, but BEFORE the damage calculation, in which it is too late to activate many cards--or are you saying that once they both agree to go onto the damage step the TP can say, okay, just prior to entering the damage step, I activate BoM?

I'm not trying to use the rules to corner a person (I don't think I am, anyway), I just want to be able to leave the declaration, and move into the attack, but not the damage step, so I can activate a card effect without worrying about Sak. But I guess that as it stands now, YuGiOh! is based on "last resolved" over a definitive movement of/through phases/steps. I can respect that. It just means that until it is cleared up, we have to ensure that you interupt yourself with effects to resolve (like Magician's Circle, when you know your opponent has no Spellcasters). It's just that if they are going to have cards that ONLY activate at a certain time, there must be a way to differentiate that time from its ante and post. But, I'm sure that's what you LV3s are hashing out. (Oops! ending in a preposition--out of which you are hashing....nope. whatever!)

Thanks, John (and the rest). As usual, a varitable sophocopia.

 

[John Danker]

Yes, I'm trying to get to a point after the declaration, but BEFORE the damage calculation, in which it is too late to activate many cards--or are you saying that once they both agree to go onto the damage step the TP can say, okay, just prior to entering the damage step, I activate BoM?

Once both players agree to enter the damage step it's too late to then activate Sakuretsu Armor, BOM, etc.

This, however, would be legal...

P1 Declares attack w/ Gemini Elf and passes priority.
P2 Does not wish to respond at this time.
P1 Announces they wish to move into damage step.
P2 Activates Sakuretsu Armor / BOM

 

[Kyhotae]

So, in the question concerning battle step and the "response window", tell me how would it differ from this situation (the same example I gave posts above with modifications):

TP is in his main phase. He has one Blade Knight and one Brain Control in hand.
NTP has only Mobius the Frost Monarch face-up and a set Bottomless Trap Hole (his hand is irrelevant for this example). He has 4400 lp (or less).
TP summons Blade Knight and pass. As NTP Mobius is stronger than Blade and Breaker, he decides to save his Bottomless since TP has still 8000 lp- he pass. After this summon, TP continue his MP1. He thinks for a moment and activates Brain Control, targeting Mobius. NTP realizes he will lose, because both Blade and the Monarch could finish the job.
But wait, NTP thinks- since Brain Control has not fully resolved yet and the last thing to occour was the summon, now I can still activate BTH, saving me.

Well, in my opinion, this type of activation doesn't seem legal or even fair, given the fact he had the opportunity to respond to the summon and passed.

And you would be correct. This is not a legal move for one simple reason. The priority the turn player has includes the activation of Monster effects and Spell Speed 2 cards effects. The activation of "Brain Control" in your example is a Spell Speed 1 effect. Therefore, it is proof that the player has passed his priority and the turn player did not respond. If the turn player activated "Book of Moon" as in your previous example, the opportunity to chain with "Bottomless Trap Hole" still exists because the turn player activated a Spell Speed 2 effect and the last thing to happen was a Summon, proving that they are still in the response window.

So, if your worried about the opponent chaining to an activation "late," then you should ask for a response, confirm a negative, the activate a NORMAL Spell Card before activating a Quick-Play Spell Card so you have proof that the response window is past. The opponent cannot chain to a Normal Spell card with a Summon response card because you can't activate Spell Speed 1 cards (besides monster effects) with priority, so priority is already past if you activate one.

Basically, the difference between your two examples is the Spell Speed of the cards used. Spell Speed 1 means that priority is passed, Spell Speed 2 means that you are using priority. That's all the game sees.

 

[John Danker]

As I said, "Logic" would hold this to be true...however, after repeated attempts to get a statement regarding such a scenario and after months (at least 6) of waiting (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has submited such a question) we remain with no official response.

At this point I'm going with "Logic" as I have no other choice. It wouldn't surprise me though if logic were overcome by a ruling otherwise at a later date.

 

[Kyhotae]

I'm pretty sure I've heard this somewhere else before. Maybe they haven't given "official" word because it makes sense. I don't know. That's the way I rule it if I come across it.

 

[John Danker]

I learned a long time ago not to trust what makes "sense" in my own mind concerning this game. As with a number of mechanics in this game, most of us can justify in our own minds our thoughts on those mechanics and make "sense" of them....but that doesn't necessarily mean that sense is the correct ruling.

I remember a time not so long ago when it made "sense" to most that only the monster just summoned could have it's effect activated using turn player priority too.....we now know that not to be true.

 

[Kyhotae]

True, but something as important as this most likely would have been addressed in some official capacity if it were different from the way most people think it is. At least I would hope so... :-o

 

[John Danker]

Please trust me when I say there are many such issues of equal importance that have not been officially addressed.

 

[Dr Sin]

All right Kyhotae. I have considered this argument too. But it involves some assumptions that are not "really official" too. I can see logic in your argument and I can even almost agree with it.

But I still see a problem. If after both passed, TP decides to activate some spell speed 2 effect, NTP takes great advantage of this because he is now being able to see the next move from TP and make a more grounded decision. The worst part, at least for me: NTP now has opportunity ro respond to a previous "closed window" that has absolutely no connection with the new chain.
And so, it seems to me, that we MUST in every situation proceed like this:
TP is in his MP 1 and decides to summon a monster. NTP has set s/t (s). If TP passes and NTP passes too, and TP wishes to make his next move, in which he plains to activate some spell speed 1 effect, he MUST ask something like this: can I really pass to a "non- connected" event?
Did you understand the point? It's very, very strange to assume NTP has this double opportunity and even more stranger, a double opportunity to respond to an action knowing what TP will do next (in the case of BoM or EC in the MP1)...

Just trying to understand yet... I do not intend to cause confusion.

 

[Kyhotae]

It's because the turn player didn't really pass. If they had passed, they would not have activated a Spell Speed 2 effect. Activating a Spell Speed 1 effect is not allowed with priority, so there is no need to "confirm" that the window is closed. If a Spell Speed 1 effect is activated, then priority is waived and the opponent did not respond. If a Spell Speed 2 effect is activated after the turn player "passed," then he didn't really pass. He's just trying to get an effect off that the game mechanics won't allow without he opponent having an opportunity to respond.

Priority cuts both ways. Sure you get to make sure you get an effect off, but it also means you may fall into a Trap (that's why the game has traps), like when you Summon "Chiron the Mage" and us priority to activate his effect and the face-down card turns out to be "Bottomless Trap Hole". You have now lost 2 cards instead of one. It's always a gamble to show your hand before the opponent responds, but the game mechanics are clear. If you summon and "pass priority" and your opponent doesn't respond, you better only activate Spell Speed 1 effects next or you really didn't pass priority and your opponent can still respond to the Summon/attack.

That being said, if you don't use priority and your opponent doesn't respond, and you communicate this, you CAN then use a monster effect (as long as it's not multi-trigger) to ensure that you are out of the response window since most of them are Spell Speed 1. In the above scenario about "Chiron the Mage", if the turn player Summons him and passes priority ("I'm not going to use priority"), the opponent has THIS opportunity to "Bottomless Trap Hole" him. If he passes, the turn player can now safely use his effect to destroy "Bottomless Trap Hole" since he's using a Spell Speed 1 effect.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Which was exactly my point of saying, "Hey, can I move on to the part of activating normal spell cards? Yes, okay, I am going to activate a spell speed two, but not in any response to the summon, okay? Okay. Here goes...."

 

[Kyhotae]

You can't do that. That is trying to avoid the game mechanics by talking your way out of it.

If you activate anything Spell Speed 2 after a Summon, no matter what you said before that, you are still in the Summon Response Window and your opponent can chain the appropriate card.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Yeah, and I don't like it!! but I know....tough!! Right? (ah, the positive uses of Spell Speed 1 Spell cards...who says the are less powerful/versitile than quick play--not me).

 

[Dr Sin]

I thought a little bit more about all this thread and found another weird example abut this issue (both passing and TP activating some spell speed 2 effect like BTH or TT)...

NTP has a set S/T. TP summons a monsters in his MP1 (he had only one card in hand). TP pass and NTP passes too. TP doesn't want to do any other thing and declares: I want to proceed to BP.
Then, NTP could now say: wait, I activate BTH...
Isn't this strange too?
And NTP has this advantage: he was seeing that his opponent only had one card in hand, and as TP summoned the monster, NTP can think: "well, he can't do any other thing, so let's see, if he announces he wants to proceed to BP I activate my BTH/ TT/ TH etc. If not, I save the card for another situation..."

 

[Dr Sin]

And I'll insist...
My post above seems exactly like the example John gave:

This, however, would be legal...

P1 Declares attack w/ Gemini Elf and passes priority.
P2 Does not wish to respond at this time.
P1 Announces they wish to move into damage step.
P2 Activates Sakuretsu Armor / BOM

But seems much more weird and incorrectly. Allowing opponent to have the information about what will be done next and even worse, with he had already passed and been legal for him to use "directly action connected" cards seems so unfair and incoherent with all game mechanics... It gives a tactical advantage for the NTP that I simply can not accept...

Sorry to insist again...

 

[cuzwbd]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [Example 1] of an OK play.
P1 attacks with "Gemini Elf".
P2 activates "Sakuretsu Armor".
P1 chains "Royal Decree".
P2 chains "Mirror Force".

[Example 2] of an OK play.
P1 attacks with "Gemini Elf".
P2 activates "Sakuretsu Armor".
P1 activates "Trap Jammer".
Chain resolves.
P2 activates "Book of Moon" targeting "Gemini Elf".

[Example 1] of an ILLEGAL play.
P1 attacks with "Gemini Elf".
P2 activates "Sakuretsu Armor".
P1 activates "Trap Jammer".
Chain resolves.
P2 cannot activate "Mirror Force" now.

Now can anyone explain to class why Mirror Force would now be impossible to activate by P2 but he/she can still activate Book of Moon after a Counter Trap resolved? Rest my case.
[/font]

lets try...trap jammer is spell speed 3 - and can only be responded to by another ss3...so it resolves and sak goes away... we now return to already declared attack where new chan of events begins with book of moon....mirror force wont work because it would no longer be in response to declaring an attack (trap jammer has resolved)