To SEGOC or not to SEGOC....

Dillie-O

Dillie-O

Council of Heroes
Hey netreppers....

I've responded to this thread in another forum, but I'm still a little confused about it and would love some more people that get SEGOC to help me make heads or tails of this. This is the original thread...

Here's a situation I found myself during my lunch break. I had Ectoplsmer active on the field and a face down monster. When I ended my turn and it was my opponents turn, he played Dark Dust Spirit (he was playing with the strucuture deck). Now correct me if I am wrong, but by the time it is the end phase of the turn, the order of possible effects goes like this:
1. Dark Dust Spirit goes back to hand
2. Because of Ectoplasmer, a monster has to be tributed to do damage to opponents life points.

Now when I ruled this, I said that both effects were trying to resolve during the end phase, so it becomes a SEGOC. Since Ectoplasmer belongs to the opponent, you have to put turn player (Dark Dust Spirit) as first link on the chain. When it resolves, Ectoplasmer will remove DDS, and then DDS will no longer be able to return itself to the owners hand.

However, another judge had ruled that this is in no way SEGOC because the effects be in a "MUST resolve" state in order to apply them. In addition, although its the opponents Ectoplasmer, the actual effect activation is the turn player's, so they are able to decide which order to resolve things.

Is my concept of SEGOC slightly confused. Please help me out. Thanks!
 
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From Ectoplasmer FAQ: The Tribute is performed by the turn player. (Both players have to do this during their respective End Phases, not just the controller of "Ectoplasmer".)

Thus, the turn player has two effects to resolve during their end phase, Ectoplasmer, and DDS.

From Advanced Gameplay FAQ: If only one player has simultaneous effects being activated, then that player can choose the order in which they resolve.

Which means the player can return DDS to their hand, then Ectoplasmer has no monsters it can resolve with and "fizzles".
 
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Firstly, this is not a SEGOC. When dealing with the Standby or End Phase, you should learn to get SEGOC out of your mind, as it rarely applies.

A SEGOC is when 2 Trigger Effects attempt to activate and be placed on the Chain Block at the exact same time.

Effect that activate/resolve during the End Phase whether chainable or not, all resolve seperately.

In this case Ectoplasmer is chainable, and the Dark Dust Spirit returning to the Hand is not.

The correct ruling is that since the DDS is the Turn Player's effect he/she can choose to resolve it first, returning it to the Hand, and then, if no other monsters exist on the Turn Player's side, Ectoplasmer's effect would "dissappear."

Hope that helps
 
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novastar said:
In this case Ectoplasmer is chainable, and the Dark Dust Spirit returning to the Hand is not.
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Question about that.

When you say it is not chainable does that mean it can't chain to an effect or that it can't be chained to? Or both?

The reason I ask is because of those confounding Divine Wrath rulings. The fourth ruling states that it must be chained directly to an effect preseeding it on the chain. But the eighteenth (whew) ruling says: You can activate "Divine Wrath" when a Spirit Monster is returned to the owner's hand by its own effect, and the Spirit Monster will be destroyed and sent to the Graveyard.
Does this make the effect of a Spirit monster returning to it's owners hand chainable or is it just one of those confounding things in the FAQ that just don't make any sense?
 
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The Spirit effect monsters when they return to the owner's hand is a chainable event.

Ectoplasmer is a chainable event.

Since Player1 is the Turn Player, he/she has priority to resolve his/her effects, priority is then passed to Player2 if he/she wishes to chain and/or resolve his/her effects.

Player1 could state he/she would rather have Ectoplasmer tribute Dark Dust Spirit instead of returning Dark Dust Spirit.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Question about that.

When you say it is not chainable does that mean it can't chain to an effect or that it can't be chained to? Or both?

The reason I ask is because of those confounding Divine Wrath rulings. The fourth ruling states that it must be chained directly to an effect preseeding it on the chain. But the eighteenth (whew) ruling says: You can activate "Divine Wrath" when a Spirit Monster is returned to the owner's hand by its own effect, and the Spirit Monster will be destroyed and sent to the Graveyard.
Does this make the effect of a Spirit monster returning to it's owners hand chainable or is it just one of those confounding things in the FAQ that just don't make any sense?
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By "chainable" or "not chainable" i mean that it creates a Chain Link (usually CL1) and you can "chain to" it.

Yes that ruling would make it chainable.

I always thought that it was not, however the fact that you can chain Divine Wrath makes it chainable.

My impression always was (and still is) that it was more akin to the return of the monster from Change of Heart, a sort of lingering effect.

Sorry for the confusion
 
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novastar said:
By "chainable" or "not chainable" i mean that it creates a Chain Link (usually CL1) and you can "chain to" it.

Yes that ruling would make it chainable.

I always thought that it was not, however the fact that you can chain Divine Wrath makes it chainable.

My impression always was (and still is) that it was more akin to the return of the monster from Change of Heart, a sort of lingering effect.

Sorry for the confusion
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So this means the Turn Player can chose which one they want to resolve (Ectoplasmer or Dark Dust Spirit)?
 
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Fiendish Envoy said:
So this means the Turn Player can chose which one they want to resolve (Ectoplasmer or Dark Dust Spirit)?
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In this particular case the Turn Player can only choose to activate Dark Dust Spirit, because Ectoplasmer is controlled by the opponent.

So the Turn Player can only choose to activate Dark Dust Spirit or pass and give the opponent a choice of whether to activate Ectoplasmer or not.

In the event that the opponent chooses not to activate Ectoplasmer, it will go back to the Turn Player forcing Dark Dust Spirit to activate first and return to the Hand.
 
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novastar said:
In this particular case the Turn Player can only choose to activate Dark Dust Spirit, because Ectoplasmer is controlled by the opponent.

So the Turn Player can only choose to activate Dark Dust Spirit or pass and give the opponent a choice of whether to activate Ectoplasmer or not.

In the event that the opponent chooses not to activate Ectoplasmer, it will go back to the Turn Player forcing Dark Dust Spirit to activate first and return to the Hand.
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Are you sure your opponent is the one who decides to activate Ectoplasmer's effect? Since the text on Ectoplasmer seems to suggest that the Turn Player is controlling the effect.
 
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Rats, well I got that one wrong. So the controller of Ectoplasmer gets to decide when his effect will activate during end phase, not the person who has to do the tributing. And that makes perfect sense to me that the controller of the card would always get to decide whether or not the effect goes into play during his priority. Well, I'm learning. That means the turn player could save his DDS if he wanted to, but if he wanted to use Ectoplasmer's effect, the controller of Ectoplasmer could prevent him from doing that by passing on priority after the turn player passed on priority, forcing the turn player to resolve the effect of DDS.
 
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Actually, I think I'll take that back. Considering Ectoplasmer is under the opponent's control, even thought it effects the Turn Player. Ectoplasmer will only take place when Player2 has priority to resolve effects, if Ectoplasmer is active, Player2 priority is at hand and the Turn Player chooses which to be tributed.

Dark Dust Spirit cannot decide whether or not it will return to the Owner's Hand, but nonetheless it does begin a chain. Also, as the Turn Player effects that must resolve will resolve first beggining a chain if the action begins one.

In this case, Ectoplasmer (Player2) Vs Dark Dust Spirit (Turn Player), Dark Dust Spirit will have it's effect go off first being that it's the Turn Player's creature. Ectoplasmer won't have it's chance to tribute Dark Dust Spirit.
 
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Fiendish Envoy said:
Are you sure your opponent is the one who decides to activate Ectoplasmer's effect? Since the text on Ectoplasmer seems to suggest that the Turn Player is controlling the effect.
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As a general rule of thumb, if a Spell/Trap or Monster is located in a Zone you control, any effect generated from it (while it's under your control) is considered under your control. No matter which player is affected by it.
 
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It's a term created by Kevin:

Here's a sneak peak at a portion of the new FAQ update. I've been working on
this with the fine folks over in Japan. I'm posting this because it came up
recently with the Dark Necrofear vs. Dark Necrofear example, and the
ever-present I'm-about-to-win-with-Exodia questions.

It deals with simultaneous effects. I have a nifty acronym.

Simultaneous
Effects
Go
On
Chains

SEGOC.

Enjoy.

Kevin Tewart Game Developer
UDE Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D Lead
Upper Deck Entertainment
Click to expand...
Click here to read the listing he gave: http://www.igforums.com//threads/4738
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
Actually, I think I'll take that back. Considering Ectoplasmer is under the opponent's control, even thought it effects the Turn Player. Ectoplasmer will only take place when Player2 has priority to resolve effects, if Ectoplasmer is active, Player2 priority is at hand and the Turn Player chooses which to be tributed.

Dark Dust Spirit cannot decide whether or not it will return to the Owner's Hand, but nonetheless it does begin a chain. Also, as the Turn Player effects that must resolve will resolve first beggining a chain if the action begins one.

In this case, Ectoplasmer (Player2) Vs Dark Dust Spirit (Turn Player), Dark Dust Spirit will have it's effect go off first being that it's the Turn Player's creature. Ectoplasmer won't have it's chance to tribute Dark Dust Spirit.
Click to expand...

Okay, so now I'm confused again. Wow, I blink and my thread goes from 3 to 17 posts 8^D. I think I followed things to the point that in the scenario mentioned, it is the effect of Ectoplasmer is considered the opponents effect, even though it affects whoever the current turn player is. That being said, we now have to events that are triggering as soon as the end phase, yes?

Ectoplasmer begins: "Only once during each player's End Phase..."

Dark Dust Spirit's second line begins: "This card returns to the owner's hand during the End Phase..."

To me, both of these events trigger during the End Phase. The player does not choose when the effects activate (ignition effect I believe, yes?) . So in this case you have two effects triggering simultaneously. Which leads back to the whole SEGOC thing again.

Now I can see how the text may be more of an "elective" nature since it uses the word "during", but now I'm all confused again.

What a way to start a Friday. Help me! 8^D
 
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