XYZ-Dragon Cannon and Dimension Fusion

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n00b

Gold Member
I'm confused. I was looking at some rulings (yeah, I was looking at rulings o_O!), and I came across the ruling (an official one, I believe, from UDE's Specific Card Rulings) that XYZ-Dragon Cannon can be Special Summoned by Dimension Fusion if it is Special Summoned "properly" (with an AARJ ruling clarifying it as "properly through its effect." How can this be so if XY-Dragon Cannon, XZ-Tank Cannon, and YZ-Tank Dragon's rulings all say that they canNOT be Special Summoned properly (since the only proper way to summon a Fusion monster is by Fusion) and that they cannot be Special Summoned by Monster Reborn because of this? Isn't this essentially the same basic situation? Why is the result different? :?
 
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XYZ falls in the same category as those monsters like CED, BLS, Necrofear, etc. that originally state this card can only be special summoned. The difference lies in that XYZ-Dragon Cannon is not "fusion summoned ever" it's "Special summoned".

Cards such as Dark Paladin have that can only be special summoned by fusion, but you don't fuse XYZ, you special summon it from the fusion deck by removing the cards that make it up, so it's just a simple special summon similar to CED, BLS, etc. Which we all know those can be special summoned from the graveyard, etc. if they were properly summoned first.

There's your explanation why.
 
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So, let me get this:

XYZ cannot be Monster Reborned, since it was a Fusion Monster not properly Fusion Summoned.

XYZ can be Dimension Fusioned, since its Special Summon conditions have been completely met.

Fusion Monsters brought by Metamorphosis cannot be Monster Reborned, since they were Fusion Monsters not properly Fusion Summoned.

Fusion Monsters brought by Metamorphosis cannot be Dimension Fusioned since its Special Summon conditions haven't been met.

Dark Paladin cannot be Monster Reborned or Dimension Fusioned, since it is a 'nomi' monster.

Am I right?
 
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Maester Bacman said:
So, let me get this:

XYZ cannot be Monster Reborned, since it was a Fusion Monster not properly Fusion Summoned.

No, I didn't say it couldn't be Monster Reborned, I said it could because it's a fusion monster that is not "fused" it is simply special summoned. It simply reads "You can only special summon this monster by removing..." and doesn't read "This card can only be Special Summoned by Fusion summon." like Dark Paladin reads, for more on this look down.

XYZ can be Dimension Fusioned, since its Special Summon conditions have been completely met.

As long as it's first special summon requirements were met it can be special summoned from anywhere again (other then the deck directly in case of a Fiber Jar). As I said before it falls into the category of BLS, CED, and Necrofear in effects like this.

Fusion Monsters brought by Metamorphosis cannot be Monster Reborned, since they were Fusion Monsters not properly Fusion Summoned.

This is correct because to special summon a normal fusion monster from the graveyard you must have fusion summoned it to begin with. Since a fusion was not properly fusion summoned, it can not be monster reborned. Don't look at XYZ as a fusion monster because it really isn't, the only thing that links it to a fusion monster is the fact that it's classified as one and goes in the fusion deck. It is never fusion summoned at all, it's only special summoned by removing the pieces that make it from the game. So this means you don't need Poly or Fusion Gate, which are the only ways to fuse an actual fusion monster.

Fusion Monsters brought by Metamorphosis cannot be Dimension Fusioned since its Special Summon conditions haven't been met.

Yes, look above to Monster Reborn for more on this. Like I said, XYZ is never fusion summoned, it's simply special summoned through it's effect. I'll quote a ruling on XYZ for you. ""XYZ-Dragon Cannon" may not be Special Summoned by Fusion Summon." This means that it isn't fusion summoned, it's simply special summoned by doing it's requirement.

Dark Paladin cannot be Monster Reborned or Dimension Fusioned, since it is a 'nomi' monster.

Correct, because it is a "nomi" monster. Dark Paladin reads that the only way to special summon it is by the fusion summon and it's the only way it can be special summoned, you can't special summon it any other way. I know things get confusing, but if you read the wording on the cards, it's quite simple to follow.
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Guao. I'm amazed about XYZ and Monster Reborn. My friends will also be amazed.

So, there is a difference between the official rulings:

XYZ FUSION MONSTERS
You cannot Special Summon these monsters with "Monster Reborn" if they are in the Graveyard, because they were never Summoned "properly".

DIMENSION FUSION
"Dimension Fusion" can Special Summon "XYZ-Dragon Cannon" if it was Special Summoned properly first.

According to the first ruling, the second would never happen. Well, that's what I think.


I like what you said, helpoemer316. It seems pretty logical. XYZ reads like Dark Necrofear in its Special Summon requirements. And if Dimension Fusion allows it to return to the field, Monster Reborn should do that too. There is no 'EXCEPT BY'or 'only Fusion Summon'. There is only one way to Special Summon this card 'properly' from the fusion deck, and that is the one in the effect.
Things look more clear now.

Thx.
 
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I hope this makes things clear.

XYZ fusions cannot be special summoned from the graveyard.
XYZ fusions cannot be special summoned by dimension fusion (or Return from a Different Dimension).

Fusion monsters (purple borders) can only be special summoned from the Graveyard (or removed from play) if they have been properly summoned (except for "nomi" monsters).  There are only 2 ways to do this currently:

1) Polymerization
2) Fusion Gate

Monsters summoned by the effects of Magical Scientist, Summoner of Illusions, etc...and XYZ fused are not considered properly summoned.

For those who like to search on the judge list, it is post 9293.
 
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helpoemer316 said:
Maester Bacman said:
So, let me get this:

XYZ cannot be Monster Reborned, since it was a Fusion Monster not properly Fusion Summoned.

No, I didn't say it couldn't be Monster Reborned, I said it could because it's a fusion monster that is not "fused" it is simply special summoned. It simply reads "You can only special summon this monster by removing..." and doesn't read "This card can only be Special Summoned by Fusion summon." like Dark Paladin reads, for more on this look down.

XYZ can be Dimension Fusioned, since its Special Summon conditions have been completely met.

As long as it's first special summon requirements were met it can be special summoned from anywhere again (other then the deck directly in case of a Fiber Jar). As I said before it falls into the category of BLS, CED, and Necrofear in effects like this.

Fusion Monsters brought by Metamorphosis cannot be Monster Reborned, since they were Fusion Monsters not properly Fusion Summoned.

This is correct because to special summon a normal fusion monster from the graveyard you must have fusion summoned it to begin with. Since a fusion was not properly fusion summoned, it can not be monster reborned. Don't look at XYZ as a fusion monster because it really isn't, the only thing that links it to a fusion monster is the fact that it's classified as one and goes in the fusion deck. It is never fusion summoned at all, it's only special summoned by removing the pieces that make it from the game. So this means you don't need Poly or Fusion Gate, which are the only ways to fuse an actual fusion monster.

Fusion Monsters brought by Metamorphosis cannot be Dimension Fusioned since its Special Summon conditions haven't been met.

Yes, look above to Monster Reborn for more on this. Like I said, XYZ is never fusion summoned, it's simply special summoned through it's effect. I'll quote a ruling on XYZ for you. ""XYZ-Dragon Cannon" may not be Special Summoned by Fusion Summon." This means that it isn't fusion summoned, it's simply special summoned by doing it's requirement.

Dark Paladin cannot be Monster Reborned or Dimension Fusioned, since it is a 'nomi' monster.

Correct, because it is a "nomi" monster. Dark Paladin reads that the only way to special summon it is by the fusion summon and it's the only way it can be special summoned, you can't special summon it any other way. I know things get confusing, but if you read the wording on the cards, it's quite simple to follow.
Click to expand...
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That's a good explanation, but that still leaves the matter of XY, XZ, and YZ. Their rulings all state that:
"¢ You cannot Fusion Summon these monsters with Polymerization or Fusion Gate, so it is impossible to Summon these monsters "properly".

"¢ You cannot Special Summon these monsters with Monster Reborn if they are in the Graveyard, because they were never Summoned "properly"
Isn't that a contradiction of what you just explained? They're all worded the same when it comes to the Special Summoning.

I hope this makes things clear.

XYZ fusions cannot be special summoned from the graveyard.
XYZ fusions cannot be special summoned by dimension fusion (or Return from a Different Dimension).

Fusion monsters (purple borders) can only be special summoned from the Graveyard (or removed from play) if they have been properly summoned (except for "nomi" monsters). There are only 2 ways to do this currently:

1) Polymerization
2) Fusion Gate

Monsters summoned by the effects of Magical Scientist, Summoner of Illusions, etc...and XYZ fused are not considered properly summoned.

For those who like to search on the judge list, it is post 9293.
Click to expand...

Can you post what it says for those of us who don't have access to the Judge's List? I've still yet to go to an official tournament and get an UDE number, and now that you can't take the Level 1 Judge test online, it's likely that I won't take it. =_=
 
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somewan said:
I hope this makes things clear.

XYZ fusions cannot be special summoned from the graveyard.
XYZ fusions cannot be special summoned by dimension fusion (or Return from a Different Dimension).

Fusion monsters (purple borders) can only be special summoned from the Graveyard (or removed from play) if they have been properly summoned (except for "nomi" monsters).  There are only 2 ways to do this currently:

1) Polymerization
2) Fusion Gate

Monsters summoned by the effects of Magical Scientist, Summoner of Illusions, etc...and XYZ fused are not considered properly summoned.

For those who like to search on the judge list, it is post 9293.
Click to expand...

Normally, I wouldn't argue with you on this one... however, in this case, there is a ruling on the official UDE FAQ that it is indeed legal to Special Summon XYZ via Dimension Fusion (for now.) XYZ is an unusual monster in that it is a Fusion monster that can never be fusion summoned. However, there are means to Special Summon it and that would have to fulfill the requirement for 'properly' that is mentioned in the ruling. There simply is no other way to Special Summon XYZ. So until that ruling changes, it is what we should go by, as oddball as it sounds.

Note that that judge's list posting was made in March, while the most recent version of the FAQ was put up a couple weeks ago. The most recent document/ruling should take precedence.
 
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Here's my take on the FAQ "contradictions" (and I suppose a good reason why when we quote other places, we should put the text in as well...).

UDE FAQ for XYZ fusions:

You cannot Fusion Summon these monsters with Polymerization or Fusion Gate, so it is impossible to Summon these monsters "properly".

You cannot Special Summon these monsters with Monster Reborn if they are in the Graveyard, because they were never Summoned "properly".

UDE FAQ for Dimension Fusion:

"Dimension Fusion" can Special Summon "XYZ-Dragon Cannon" if it was Special Summoned properly first. (bold mine)

So...
you can use Dimension Fusion on the XYZ if it was special summoned properly first, but it is impossible to special summon them properly to begin with.

I would hope that UDE would remove the statement from Dimension Fusion. It seems confusing, while not actually contradicting with other rulings.

and in the spirit of posting references...
(due to the "time" factor of latest_rulings_override_old_ones, it's probably a good idea to post the date when possible)

Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:03 pm
Subject: Dimension Fusion


ADVERTISEMENT


Can Dimension Fusion special summon fusion monsters other than XYZ
and Dark Paladin? Specifically those fusion monsters special summoned
improperly via magical scientist, summoner of illusions, or
metamorphosis.
Thanks,
Brian Selzer
Level 1 Judge




Answer:

Fusion Monsters due to:

Magical Scientist - no.

Summoner of Illusions - no.

Metamorphosis - no.


Dark Paladin cannot be Special Summoned with "Dimension Fusion."

The various XYZ fusions cannot be Special Summoned with "Dimension Fusion."

----------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep
 
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There was something else I wanted to add as well, but hope that as a separate post it has more impact...

Dlanaan said:
Normally, I wouldn't argue with you on this one...
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Actually, I would hope you (and everyone) would "normally" argue with rulings they disagree with.

These forums are set up so, as a community, we can all openly discuss rulings and "argue" when something is not clear. It's better to discuss this here than in the middle of a tournament (which, if a ruling is incorrect, it should be mentioned. However, we all have to remember that the ruling of the Head Judge is final, right or wrong.)

Now, I don't want to promote the "no I'm right," "no I'm right," "no I'm right" style of arguing. State why you feel a ruling is a certain way and cite a reference. If it's simply your opinion, state that too.

Ok, I suppose I should stop now. If anyone wishes to talk about "arguing", feel free to open up a new thread. I would think it would yield some interesting posts...
 
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As I keep seeing an apparent "back and forth" here, without looking at the UDE ruling, XYZ is a "Special Summon Only" Monster.

By removing the required monsters, you can then summon him to the field.  Since this is the ony way to "properly" Special Summon him, how can he be returned by Dimension Fusion if he can only be Special Summoned by removing "X-Head Cannon" + "Y-Dragon Head" + "Z-Metal Tank"?

Once again, it doesnt state whether it is from the Fusion Deck, from the Graveyard, or removed from play, but it does say this:

"This monster can only be Special Summoned by removing from play the above monsters on your side of the field."​
So what I think it means is that if you remove the required monsters AGAIN, then you can Special Summon XYZ, by Dimension Fusion, AGAIN.

Tyrant Dragon can be Special Summoned also, but only by removing a Dragon-type monster from the field as a sacrifice.  Does this also mean that if Tyrant Dragon were removed from play that he could also be summoned by Dimension Fusion?
 
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somewan is correct on his statements, I misunderstood the question from the start so I was being mislead while trying to find correct answers.

My stuff would be right if XYZ wasn't a fusion monster, but it is, and I was being confused by the ruling of it never being fusion summoned and I looked at the text as being somewhat similar to BLS in that respect then.

I apologize for any confusion, but things haven't been too great for me the past few days and this was just the icing on the cake on showing how tired I really am, lol.

Sorry folks.
 
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Currently, there is an incongruency between the two rulings. My suggestion would be to go by the most recent ruling, which states that XYZ is a nomi monster and can ONLY be summoned by its own effect.
 
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The question, though, is that given that XYZ can only be Special Summoned by its effect and since that is not via Polymerization and so therefore it could not be Special Summoned from the Graveyard/RFG normally... why is the ruling even there in the first place? There must be something missing somewhere if there was some necessity to put that XYZ Dragon Cannon could be Special Summoned via Dimension Fusion if it was properly summoned first.
 
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Raijinili said:
As Steve would have us believe, it's all Konami's fault. Everything is Konami's fault. Including the picture of the Japanese Dian Keto.
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sj2-046.jpg
<--Konami's fault
Sorry if you are now suffering mental problems/your eyes are burning/you are dead because of the above image. Blame Konami. It IS their fault. Anyway, I guess the Judge's List post clears everything up. The old ruling is gone. :)
 
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