BTH being activated after TP announces he wants to proceed to BP

[Dr Sin]

Scenario: NTP has a f/d BTH and a set monster. He has activated Confiscation and knows that his opponent has only one Mobius in hand now.
TP draws a Cyber Dragon. He enters his MP1, special summons his CD and passes his opportunity to respond. NTP doesn't activates BTH, betting TP will summon Mobius, and then he will respond with BTH, making his opponent lose 2 cards for his one.
But then TP decides to proceed to BP, announcing it to NTP. NTP realizes his plan has failed, but he wants to maintain his f/d monster (a Skelengel, Dekoichi, MoF for example) and thinks: "wait a minute, the last event was still a summon and we are still in MP1" and activates BTH now.
1) Would this be a legal move?
2) And in fact, if this situation happens (a card being activated in a non-responsive window before the end of a MP1 after TP announced his intend to proceed to BP) would TP return to a point in his MP1 in which he could still perform a summon, or at this point he could only activate SS 2 effects?

I'm basing this situation on the below example, John Danker provided in another thread, for Battle step:

"This, however, would be legal...

P1 Declares attack w/ Gemini Elf and passes priority.
P2 Does not wish to respond at this time.
P1 Announces they wish to move into damage step.
P2 Activates Sakuretsu Armor* / BOM"

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.16798&page=6&pp=15

* "action connected card" being activated after both passing.

So, did you understand the point? And what do you think?

 

[anthonyj]

You think that's cheating, but that's exactly what you want to have happen. The turn player is not really passing priority. He wants to activate "Pineaple Blast" the whole time, but he doesn't want his opponent to respond with an appropriate card.

This in NO way erases strategy from the game. You just have to think before you activate cards. Phases are ended by player agreement. Response windows are not.

Dan's in error. That's funny. He works with Kevin Tewart. They make the rules. Error. ha.

Kevin does not make rules. Kevin has never made rules (okay he makes up rules but then gets in trouble for passing out erroneous information when Konami calls him on it).

Pineapple Blast is a perfect example just like the Bottomless Trap Hole/Torrential Tribute example previously in this thread. The timing for activation must be a window that closes or you end up with stalemates being created because each player wishes to pass so that the other player will activate their card and they can chain their own.

 

[Kyhotae]

Unfortunately, the turn player has priority. So he activates a card or moves on. Either way, the opponent can respond. It's only fair.

This "stalemate" is called stalling, and should be cited at tournaments.

 

[masterwoo0]

I wish I could find the thread where I presented this same argument about Priority over a year or so ago, and people were trying to tell me that I had it all wrong, and that the turn player shouldnt have advantage.

By having this as a pass-pass-pass-pass, the Turn Player is always at the mercy of the opponent who is just waiting for the Turn Player to "do something else", so he can activate a card that should no longer have the correct timing.

 

[Kyhotae]

Instead of the opponent who's at the mercy of the turn player who's trying to trick him out of activating his effects? It cut's both ways, which usually means it's fair.

 

[novastar]

You think that's cheating, but that's exactly what you want to have happen. The turn player is not really passing priority. He wants to activate "Pineaple Blast" the whole time, but he doesn't want his opponent to respond with an appropriate card.

But that is the whole risk in YGO. The surprise of the opponent countering your move.

I am not tricking my opponent out of activating his/her effects, i attacked, and he by all means can use Mirror Force. But why should i waste an effect if i don't have, i can choose not to take that risk, it's my choice as the priority player in that case.

Conversely, in my Creature Swap example, the decision to use Torry T was not based on the conditions at the time of the summon, but rather based on the conditions created by Creature Swap, because the oppenent now got to see 1 move ahead. That is an attempt to remove the risk factor altogether and reserve the right to utilize response timing whenever you feel like it, i don't see that as the intent of YGO.

 

[novastar]

This in NO way erases strategy from the game. You just have to think before you activate cards. Phases are ended by player agreement. Response windows are not.

So in reality what you are saying is that every other aspect of the game is resolved by player agreement, but strangely, not response windows?... and you are basing that thinking on a couple statements from UDE that have no backup at all... now that to me is funny...

Doesn't that seem odd to you?

I really have said all i can say here... hopefully one way or another it will be sorted out. I don't mind change, but with some backup and info would be nice.

Not a statement that says "well you've been playing it the wrong way for 5+ yrs all along"

 

[Kyhotae]

You can't activate "Torrential Tribute" in response to "Creature Swap" after a Summon. The use of a Spell Speed 1 card has signaled the end of the response timing (assuming you have passed and given the opponent a chance to respond before activating it). If the turn player passes and the opponent passes and then the turn player activates "Creature Swap", the opponent has missed his chance to activate his card. If the turn player activates a card like "Offerings to the Doomed", then the window is still open and "Torrential Tribute" can be chained.

There's no "seeing a move ahead" going on.

No, none of this seems odd to me. The ruling has been set and explained and everyone should know how to rule it by now. After 5 pages, it should be obvious.

 

[skey23]

If the turn player passes and the opponent passes and then the turn player activates "Creature Swap", the opponent has missed his chance to activate his card.

This is a true statement.

If the turn player activates a card like "Offerings to the Doomed", then the window is still open and "Torrential Tribute" can be chained.

This is a false statement.

When both players pass on the chance to respond to a Summon, the timing is now gone. It does not matter what 'type' of effect you activate after that point.

 

[novastar]

Well skey answered it perfectly, i wish i could be as concise as him.

I will wait for an actual official release statement on this before i will rule like that.

I wish both UDE and Konami would change their method with stuff like this. They wanna make a change, that's fine it's their game. Don't trickle info, because you get all this makeshift logic that messes things up.

Leave things the way they are until you prepare a full documented explaination to get everyone on the same page... even if UDE has to do on their own. Just make it clear and have it make sense.

 

[skey23]

Nova, were you responding to Kyhotae or to me? Because my post doesn't say what you're saying....lol.

 

[novastar]

It was for Kyhotae... from what i see, me and you are on the same page here.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Gee, I thought we were done at post #16. 8^D

 

[Kyhotae]

When both players pass on the chance to respond to a Summon, the timing is now gone. It does not matter what 'type' of effect you activate after that point.

Not according to what Dan said. It's the same thing as the attack response. You can't fake people out of activating their effects. The response window is not closed by consensus. That's what this whole thread has been about.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Straight from the rulebook, it states that when both players decide not to add effects to the chain, you then resolve the the chain in a LIFO fashion.

You can either add to the chain or not add to the chain. As soon as chain building begins it is automatically decided that the next (different) thing to happen would be a chain resolving.

When a monster is summoned, a phase is entered, etc. there is no determination of what happens next.

So with the chains its either "more" or "next."

So then assuming that pass means "more:" If pass means "more" than we would ahve to add chain links for it to mean "more". But since pass does not add a chain link, then it can't mean "more." So Proof by contradiction shows us that pass means to go for the next event.

That is a double-pass mechanic

If logic gives an answer it diesn't need to have anything to do with mechanics.

, and is a general rule throughout the game for chains, summons, attacks, Phase/Step ending etc.

And i maintain that you haven't offered any proof of this. In fact we already have the quotes by Dan to suggest the opposite.

I don't think i should have to quote it, because it's all over the place.

The very nature of a game is to have a large number of possibilities, if you are trying to suggest a situation where there are limited possibilities, than the burden of proof falls on you.

Everytime UDE talks about summoning a monster they specifically state that only an Ignition from a face-up and a Spell Speed 2 or higher can be used. That absolutely suggests that there is a distinction between response timing vs. non-response where Normal Summoning and Spell Speed 1 Spell Cards can be played.

And there is a different between a Standby Phase and a Main Phase; we let the players decide which one they are going to be in"¦

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Everytime UDE talks about summoning a monster they specifically state that only an Ignition from a face-up and a Spell Speed 2 or higher can be used. That absolutely suggests that there is a distinction between response timing vs. non-response where Normal Summoning and Spell Speed 1 Spell Cards can be played.

And this is the part where i have an issue. After a double pass, if I activate a SS1 Spell card, it is obvious that it cannot be in response to the summon, as I cannot do that. How is it that my opponent can now chain to my SS1 Spell card in response to my summon? That just semms SOO wrong! (And on so many levels) I understand the idea that "the last thing to resolve was...." but it just seems wrong to put that kind of limitation on the SS1 Spell card without it applying, in a sense, to the opponent as well. It isn't like when the TP tries to move into another phase, and the NTP pulls him back with a "before this happens..." There is no way to pull back on the activation of the Spell card.

Really, there needs ot be some king of continuing action window, similar to that of the attack declaration. You know, you declare an attack. Everybody activates stuff. If none of the cards negate, stop, or cause a replay, the attack automatically goes through!! TP does not have to reclaim his attack. There is no forcing back to the declare stage, it just goes through. Therefore, if Tp tries to end Main Phase 2 and go to his end phase and NTP activates a Trap, if TP doesn't respond (or even if he does), when the Trap(s) resolves, TP should not be allowed to then decide to activate a SS1 Spell card, or Summon a Monster, MP2 should just end, unless either wants to activate a SS2+ card.
(The same then would be for the Summon...no more SS@+ response? okay, action completed, Moster summoned, move on!)
It's not lawyering, its following through with an attempted action, closing a timing window and having as few hiccoughs as possible. But that's my ignorant oppinion. Ponder the idea for a minute. Imagine what the game could be like for a moment...then tell me how stupid it is LOL!!

 

[masterwoo0]

if Tp tries to end Main Phase 2 and go to his end phase and NTP activates a Trap, if TP doesn't respond (or even if he does), when the Trap(s) resolves, TP should not be allowed to then decide to activate a SS1 Spell card, or Summon a Monster, MP2 should just end, unless either wants to activate a SS2+ card.

That's basically the same point I was trying to make as well.

Everyone is fine with the fact that "one card" can basically "rewind" the whole Phase, instead of continuing the last action.

If you're driving down the road, and you are doing 45 mph in a 25 mph zone, and get pulled over by the police and given a ticket, does that mean you turn completely around and drive back home and start over the trip again? No, you just continue from where you stopped.

Of course, that isnt "Yugioh Logic", and it's bound to illicit responses to the contrary, but it just doesnt make sense to have this much flexibility in the game.

 

[novastar]

If the TP says "I wanna end Main Phase 2" and the OP says "No, i wanna activate this" they both haven't agreed, and both players have to agree to end a Phase.

This is why i keep saying that attempting to end a Phase is not like declaring an attack/summoning, it is a glorified pass with an "end of phase/step" stamp on it. It is NOT and event in motion like an attack/summon.

Until both players pass in succession to end a Phase, it will continue. There is no rewinding here, because nothing has been set in motion, it is only an attempt to do so.

 

[masterwoo0]

If the TP says "I wanna end Main Phase 2" and the OP says "No, i wanna activate this" they both haven't agreed, and both players have to agree to end a Phase.

This is why i keep saying that attempting to end a Phase is not like declaring an attack/summoning, it is a glorified pass with an "end of phase/step" stamp on it. It is NOT and event in motion like an attack/summon.

Until both players pass in succession to end a Phase, it will continue. There is no rewinding here, because nothing has been set in motion, it is only an attempt to do so.

But it should be. That's not too much to ask, and it would alleviate many issues involved with Ending a Phase.

 

[Digital Jedi]

The whole deciding how a phase ends is often overcomplicated by the desire to apply other mechanics to it. Ending a phase is simply asking your opponent if he's done and him saying yes or no. Its no more or no less complicated that.

 

[masterwoo0]

The whole deciding how a phase ends is often overcomplicated by the desire to apply other mechanics to it. Ending a phase is simply asking your opponent if he's done and him saying yes or no. Its no more or no less complicated that.

But if you noticed, you are asking from the point of view of the "Non-Turn Player", and that makes a difference.

If I ask the Turn Player if he is done, and he says "No" (stop rushing me already!!! lol), then of course it is a simple matter of him continuing on with his turn as far as everything that the Main Phase has to offer.

If, on the other hand, the Turn Player says, I am done, and would like to go to the Battle Phase, then that indicates they have done everything that they would like to do for that particular Phase.

If the opponent activates an effect to prevent the closure of the Phase, it should be that only a response to that effect be allowed, instead of, "After you respond, now I am going to Summon a Monster!"

Again, I know that no one agrees with that stance, but it simplifies things greatly, and I dont understand why it "can't" be like that. There is no hard and fast rule saying either way. Only inuendo and unclear references. Even the way Priority was supposed to indicate how "Pass-Pass" was supposed to work is crumbling. So how sure is it that it wont change to include something similar to what I am suggesting?