BTH being activated after TP announces he wants to proceed to BP

[Dr Sin]

Scenario: NTP has a f/d BTH and a set monster. He has activated Confiscation and knows that his opponent has only one Mobius in hand now.
TP draws a Cyber Dragon. He enters his MP1, special summons his CD and passes his opportunity to respond. NTP doesn't activates BTH, betting TP will summon Mobius, and then he will respond with BTH, making his opponent lose 2 cards for his one.
But then TP decides to proceed to BP, announcing it to NTP. NTP realizes his plan has failed, but he wants to maintain his f/d monster (a Skelengel, Dekoichi, MoF for example) and thinks: "wait a minute, the last event was still a summon and we are still in MP1" and activates BTH now.
1) Would this be a legal move?
2) And in fact, if this situation happens (a card being activated in a non-responsive window before the end of a MP1 after TP announced his intend to proceed to BP) would TP return to a point in his MP1 in which he could still perform a summon, or at this point he could only activate SS 2 effects?

I'm basing this situation on the below example, John Danker provided in another thread, for Battle step:

"This, however, would be legal...

P1 Declares attack w/ Gemini Elf and passes priority.
P2 Does not wish to respond at this time.
P1 Announces they wish to move into damage step.
P2 Activates Sakuretsu Armor* / BOM"

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.16798&page=6&pp=15

* "action connected card" being activated after both passing.

So, did you understand the point? And what do you think?

 

[Digital Jedi]

Dans' responce is not really an answer. "Because the Yu-Gi-Oh! TRADING CARD GAME is not Magic: the Gathering" is a way of saying "I don't know, thems the rules" without saying "I don't know, thems the rules." I would have been more impressed with the "thems the rules" answer. WHy is it they don't want us to know anything about the inner workings of this game? How come all the little details are kept hush hush and the LV 3s are treated like Jr Detectives in a larger spy orginazation? Tis isn' the CIA, this is a "kids' game" as thy keep calling it. Just tell us why. It would be less confusiong then playing Nerd Tom Cruise.

 

[John Danker]

So at least you see now where I'm getting my assuptions and where I'm gathering my information to formulate "theory" in absence of statements and rulings made in writing (in english)

Some of the points I debate, I'm sorry to say, are because of such information, not of of which I'm allowed to share.

....and you're quite welcome novastar, I'll alway share what information I'm allowed to, that's my purpose in being here the way I figure it.

 

[John Danker]

I understand your frustation DJ....don't you think I feel the same thing as a "junior spy'? <laffin> I think a good part of the reason is because Konami treats things in the same way....like mushrooms! (if you don't know what the mushrooms reference is then PM me and I'll gladly relay it)

 

[novastar]

The timing lingering leads to scenarios like this:

- TP controls no monsters
- OP controls a face-up Attack Position BLS

[Event] TP Normal Summons Sangan
{Summon Response}

TP Pass -> "I do not wish to use Priority"

...then the OP clearly states:

OP Pass -> "I do not wish to respond to the summon"

Now the TP thinking that all is clear...

[TP Chain Link 1] Creature Swap

The OP being able to see ahead, decides to use the lingering timing...

[OP Chain Link 2] Torrential Tribute

As far as im concerned that is a purely illegal move. That is how i will rule it.

Dan says that it's rules lawyering? No, that is a deliberate attempt on the OP's part to see 1 play ahead and cheat.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

DJ,Maybe it is because their inner workings look a lot like us, here at COG...Just trying to hash it out wiht little to no help from the ones who truely make up the rules. That's why it's so hard for them to come down on a ruling, because at any moment it can be reversed by Kanomi. Personally, if I were top dog (he, heh, God help us all) I would have a daily conference with Japan where I could just hash these things out. I'd love to fly down there a couple of times a year and write it off on my taxes, to build relationships with them and get in good with their rules gurus, so that together we could make it great for all. But that's me. I overdo things a touch. Over anylize and can't spell.

Nova,
I'm with you on that. I think advantage should be slightly toward the TP if any at all.

 

[John Danker]

Be careful there novastar....Dan's response was about an attack, not a MP1 scenario.

 

[novastar]

Be careful there novastar....Dan's response was about an attack, not a MP1 scenario.

Ok...

- Both players control Gemini Elf

[Event] TP declares an attack with his/her Gemini Elf on the OP's Gemini Elf
{Attack Response}

TP Pass -> "I do not wish to use Priority"

OP Pass -> "I do not wish to respond to the attack"

The TP, based on the OP's non-response to the attack, activates:

[TP Chain Link 1] Waboku

The OP now takes advantage of the timing...

[OP Chain Link 2] Mirror Force

Illegal.

One of the big aspects of this game that makes it so fun (and contrary to Dan's statement), is that actions are taken based on the actions/reactions of the other player. That includes declining to react.

I'm not saying that we should be rigid sticks in the mud, sometimes we do make provisions lets face it but... the framework should be clearly understood.

Allowing one player to postpone response, even after declining it, is like allowing that player to see ahead and cheat.

That's all i'm saying.

 

[skey23]

As far as im concerned that is a purely illegal move. That is how i will rule it.

And you would be correct.

 

[novastar]

You made a false assumption and I pointed it out:

• 
  If this "last fact" lingering timing were to be followed strictly in the framework of the rules, you would end up in the timing loop i described every single game, and the game would essentially halt.

I demonstrated how an infinite series does not stop progression.

Just because there is an infinite number of passes allowed does not mean that there is no way to leave that loop.

My assumption was based on the idea that a finite series is neccessary in YGO, and was actualy built into the game for this very reason. Infinite doesn't work here.

This is going with the understanding that during response timing you only have 2 options, pass to the opponent, or activate a Spell Speed 2 or higher (and Ignition in the case of a summon)... that's it. (this is supported by the Summon Response timing outlined everywhere on the Judge's List)

So it has nothing to do with how many passes are allowed, be it infinite or not, but the fact that at least one player would be forced to use option 2 in order to end the loop. Furthermore, if neither player had the ability to fulfill option 2, the game absolutely would halt, as no way to end the loop would be present, since the passing would then no longer be optional (as your logic suggests) but mandatory.

The only way to "fix" this would be to remove the restriction on response timing, and allow all actions/cards to be played at that time... which i don't believe was the intent of the designers.

So they built in a rule that stated that the maximum number of strait passes would be 2. The rule is used for ending a phase/step, resolving a chain, and resolving response timing... all 2 passes.

That is my thinking

 

[Kyhotae]

Ok...

- Both players control Gemini Elf

[Event] TP declares an attack with his/her Gemini Elf on the OP's Gemini Elf
{Attack Response}

TP Pass -> "I do not wish to use Priority"

OP Pass -> "I do not wish to respond to the attack"

The TP, based on the OP's non-response to the attack, activates:

[TP Chain Link 1] Waboku

The OP now takes advantage of the timing...

[OP Chain Link 2] Mirror Force

Illegal.

This is not illegal. This is a legal move. The last thing to resolve was the attack declaration. No amount of verbal nonsense by the turn player can change that. The turn player is only claiming to give up priority. The fact that they still activate a card in response to the attack is proof of their deception.

Allowing one player to postpone response, even after declining it, is like allowing that player to see ahead and cheat.

That's all i'm saying.

The problem is this:
That's exactly what the Turn Player is guilty of in this situation. The Turn Player is hoping to get by a response to the attack by pretending to pass priority. Fortunately, the rules have been set up so that they can't pass on their priority to trick the opponent into not activating their effects so they can slip one in at the end.

 

[babyarm]

I'm confused...what advantage does the Turn player get by "head faking" a pass of priority after declaring an attack. The attack's already declared, they can respond to effects played by their opponent, and they can save ATK/DEF boosters for the Damage step.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

My assumption was based on the idea that a finite series is neccessary in YGO, and was actualy built into the game for this very reason. Infinite doesn't work here.

And where does that idea come from?

This is going with the understanding that during response timing you only have 2 options, pass to the opponent, or activate a Spell Speed 2 or higher (and Ignition in the case of a summon)... that's it. (this is supported by the Summon Response timing outlined everywhere on the Judge's List)

I haven't seen any judge post to suggest that.

Sure, every option has to be either an action or a type of pass, but just like there's so many different choices of actions, why not diffent choices of passes?

So it has nothing to do with how many passes are allowed, be it infinite or not, but the fact that at least one player would be forced to use option 2 in order to end the loop. Furthermore, if neither player had the ability to fulfill option 2, the game absolutely would halt, as no way to end the loop would be present, since the passing would then no longer be optional (as your logic suggests) but mandatory.

This game doesn't play itself. There's nothing in the game to force it to move from one part of the game to another. (except dealing with none manual events e.g. chain resolving, activating trigger effects)

Sure we have a rule against "stalling," but that is in no way a game mechanic. We can't have a good game if a player punches the opponent in the nose, but surely we don't have to make game mechanics to prevent that.

The players decide when to move on. The game doesn't make them move on.

The only way to "fix" this would be to remove the restriction on response timing, and allow all actions/cards to be played at that time... which i don't believe was the intent of the designers.

The response timing is over when both players agree its over.

 

[Kyhotae]

I'm confused...what advantage does the Turn player get by "head faking" a pass of priority after declaring an attack. The attack's already declared, they can respond to effects played by their opponent, and they can save ATK/DEF boosters for the Damage step.

They have priority to activate effects after an attack is declared. By "head faking" a pass, they can try to see what card the opponent would have chained to their card if they activated first. By trying to "talk through" the response window, they are trying to see if they can sneak in a card that they wanted to activate all along without a chance for the opponent to respond. They are trying to trick the opponent into not activating their effects so they can have the "last word" when they're supposed to have the "first word."

Luckily, the game doesn't care whether or not you tried to negotiate the end of the response window, and allows the opponent to respond even after the turn player lies and says that he doesn't want to activate any cards (when he really does) and then activates them after they claimed to pass.

 

[babyarm]

Then, if the game doesn't care, then why all the ruckus about it. There's no "successive passes" rule like VS, so it really doesn't matter. At that point, it's up to the judge to make a ruling based on that specific situation, and a lot of the time, it'll be a judgement call, so no ruling from Konami or line of text in a booklet is really going to be applicable.

 

[anthonyj]

I understood the Battle Step to be more of a:

1. Declare Attack
2. Start a chain (if you intend to do so)
3. If you do not wish to begin a chain you are passing priority by stating "I'd like to move on to the Damage Step".

This isn't quite the same situation we have with Main Phase situations.

In a Main Phase once a summon has been performed the Response Chain has a restricted list of what can happen next (you can't perform another summon, or play a Speed 1 Spell, or change a monster's battle position, until the response chain has been allowed). UDE's stance on this issue seems to be that it is not the passing of Priority back and forth that closes the door on the response chain but rather after Priority has been passed back and forth it is performing one of the above actions which actually puts an end to the opportunity to chain to the summon.

 

[novastar]

wooops double post by accident..

 

[novastar]

And where does that idea come from?

Straight from the rulebook, it states that when both players decide not to add effects to the chain, you then resolve the the chain in a LIFO fashion.

That is a double-pass mechanic, and is a general rule throughout the game for chains, summons, attacks, Phase/Step ending etc.

You don't want to agree that's your prerogative.

I haven't seen any judge post to suggest that.

I don't think i should have to quote it, because it's all over the place.

Everytime UDE talks about summoning a monster they specifically state that only an Ignition from a face-up and a Spell Speed 2 or higher can be used. That absolutely suggests that there is a distinction between response timing vs. non-response where Normal Summoning and Spell Speed 1 Spell Cards can be played.

...and before it's said... no... this does not just apply to summon events only... it applies every single time a response timing is created in the game. It's just more apparent during summoning, and it's the only area in which Konami seems to wanna explain anything indepth.

Sure, every option has to be either an action or a type of pass, but just like there's so many different choices of actions, why not diffent choices of passes?

Well technically there is, passing to end a Phase/Step is slightly different than a pass to resolve a chain/event, it's just more specific in the declaration.

It is not

- "pass to end the sequence"
or
- "pass to keep the sequence going and allow you to activate"

A pass to end timing is all encompassing.

This game doesn't play itself. There's nothing in the game to force it to move from one part of the game to another. (except dealing with none manual events e.g. chain resolving, activating trigger effects)

Sure we have a rule against "stalling," but that is in no way a game mechanic. We can't have a good game if a player punches the opponent in the nose, but surely we don't have to make game mechanics to prevent that.

The players decide when to move on. The game doesn't make them move on.

The response timing is over when both players agree its over.

You are in effect stating exactly my point... and yes, you need an actual mechanic for this... it is not like "stalling" just like they have one for resolving a chain.

When you end up in a situation where both players passing cannot end timing... which the lingering timing would create... then you in a effect, create a situation where even when the players have finally decided the timing is over... even they cannot end it.

Why? because UDE's logic is saying that the players don't decide timing, it is game events that decide when timing is over, since one timing ends only when a new event takes it's place. So one player can only end the loop by activating in an attempt to create a new event... i think we can both agree that this is not correct.

It is much easier to illustrate in the Main Phase, and my Creature Swap example clear shows that. If UDE wants to call that legal go ahead... but they will eventually end up taking it back.


I see your view as valid for sure, but i disagree on the completely "open ended" thinking when it comes this game. There is definately a structure here, more so than other games, and i don't see it as open ended as you suggest, even if you desire it that way. The structure is there primarily because of the Spell Speed levels/actions.

In the end we will see how this works out. UDE is making this up as they go along without Konami's input, just like Priority/Exiled Force etc. and people are trying to make sense out of it, to justify UDE's makeshift changes, even though they usually end up backtracking. I really hate when they do this.

 

[Kyhotae]

Straight from the rulebook, it states that when both players decide not to add effects to the chain, you then resolve the the chain in a LIFO fashion.

That is a double-pass mechanic, a finite series and one of many, and is a general rule throughout the game for activation windows.

You don't want to agree that's your prerogative.

That's a double-pass mechanic at the end of a chain. Declaring an attack and Summoning a monster do not begin a chain. They are response points for the beginning of a chain, should an appropriate card be activated.

There is no "double-pass mechanic" when it comes to response timing. That's the whole point of what Dan said.

I still don't understand why you think it's OK for the Turn Player to pretend to pass priority when he really wants to activate an effect the entire time, but doesn't want to give the opponent an opportunity to respond.

 

[novastar]

That's a double-pass mechanic at the end of a chain. Declaring an attack and Summoning a monster do not begin a chain. They are response points for the beginning of a chain, should an appropriate card be activated.

There is no "double-pass mechanic" when it comes to response timing. That's the whole point of what Dan said.

...and i'm saying he is in error.

A response window at the end of a chain is virtually identical mechanically to a response window for an event, just with sightly more restriction in some cases.

- I attack...my OP can activate a SS2 (or higher) or pass.
- I activate...my OP can either chain a SS2 (or higher) or pass.

What's the difference?

Just because summons/attack aren't chain links themselves doesn't change anything. Infact it only confuses the situation, like now for instance.

I still don't understand why you think it's OK for the Turn Player to pretend to pass priority when he really wants to activate an effect the entire time, but doesn't want to give the opponent an opportunity to respond.

So are you saying that strategy doesn't play a role in YGO?

Firstly, Waboku, unlike Mirror Force, does not have attack timing. Secondly, nowhere in the sequence is the opponent not given a chance to respond.

If i attack with Spirit Ryu, I as the TP would most likely pass (on Priority) on using it's effect, and see what the OP has to offer in terms of response before i would choose to discard (similar to Magical Scientist in the past with TT). That is called strategy, not "slipping one in" and is the advantage of being the TP, just as having Priority in the first place is an advantage.

Spirit Ryu doesn't require attack timing, and i've given my opponent a chance to respond accordingly... so whats the problem? Remember cards like Mirror Force are specifically designed to respond to an attack, not an effect like Ryu's, or Waboku.

Now, saying that you want to end timing, in an attempt to play psychological warfare and force a move out of the TP or OP and suddenly bring back that timing, that to me is cheating....

The TP "slipping one in" would be this:

TP summons Gemini Elf

TP Pass
OP Pass (thinking timing is over)

***The TP having now tested the OP for summon response cards...

[TP Chain Link1] Pineapple Blast

That to me is illegal, and not the way YGO was intended to be played.

 

[Kyhotae]

You think that's cheating, but that's exactly what you want to have happen. The turn player is not really passing priority. He wants to activate "Pineaple Blast" the whole time, but he doesn't want his opponent to respond with an appropriate card.

This in NO way erases strategy from the game. You just have to think before you activate cards. Phases are ended by player agreement. Response windows are not.

Dan's in error. That's funny. He works with Kevin Tewart. They make the rules. Error. ha.