Deck Dev

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ChaosMachine

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please tell me this is correct. crossout on face down vampire lord. op chains deck dev virus. i chain compulsory evac. deck dev now does not resolve? and can deck dev be used on cards like fusilier while face down?
 
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Swartzstrom said:
Since when could you use a Trap card on a Face-Down Monster, if it didn't specify a Face-Down Monster?
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Legend of Blue Eyes White Dragon (and the Yugi and Kaiba starter decks): Two-Pronged Attack.

Magic Ruler: Spellbinding Circle

My understanding is that it's last of in activation is the first off in the chain. Vampire Lord would technincally still be face-down when Deck Devastation Virus is activated, would it not?
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Tributing Vampire Lord was the cost to activate Deck Devastation Virus in the first place. He's long gone before CED can be activated.
 
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Tkwiget said:
You set a Fusilier on the field. You've established that the monster has been placed on the field face down without tribute. Fusilier's effect is continuous and only works while face up. We so far agree with all of this.
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it's not a Continuous Effect you see, it's a Condition placed on the card after you decided to use the Summon Condition, which is why it's applied regardless of the card's position (this would be similar to 'Fox Fire''s last line).
 
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Cropz said:
it's not a Continuous Effect you see, it's a Condition placed on the card after you decided to use the Summon Condition, which is why it's applied regardless of the card's position (this would be similar to 'Fox Fire''s last line).
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I'm thinking along the same lines.

Similar to a face-down Kaiser Sea Horse allowing you to Tribute Summon Blue Eyes if he is the only monster you control.

These "conditions" bend the rules slightly, and can apply to a monster while face-down.
 
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Cropz said:
it's not a Continuous Effect you see, it's a Condition placed on the card after you decided to use the Summon Condition, which is why it's applied regardless of the card's position (this would be similar to 'Fox Fire''s last line).
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Exactly. Thank you for reminding me about Fox Fire. Yet another face-down effect (condition or whatever we'd like to call it).

We've become much too fixated on the concept that a face-down monster is a blank slate. They aren't. The controller knows all relevant information about the monster and many effects are still in play even when the monster is face-down. It is unfortunate that UDE/Konami does such a poor job of identifying which are which.
 
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anthonyj said:
Exactly. Thank you for reminding me about Fox Fire. Yet another face-down effect (condition or whatever we'd like to call it).

We've become much too fixated on the concept that a face-down monster is a blank slate. They aren't. The controller knows all relevant information about the monster and many effects are still in play even when the monster is face-down. It is unfortunate that UDE/Konami does such a poor job of identifying which are which.
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Fox Fire isnt a face-down effect. If it is face-down, it doesnt get its effect when destroyed.

But, can your opponent tribute a face-down Fox Fire with Soul Exchange?
 
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Cropz said:
it's not a Continuous Effect you see, it's a Condition placed on the card after you decided to use the Summon Condition, which is why it's applied regardless of the card's position (this would be similar to 'Fox Fire''s last line).
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I'm sorry to inform you but you're incorrect.

You cannot chain "Divine Wrath" to Continuous Effects such as: "Perfect Machine King", "Raging Flame Sprite" (either effect), "Jinzo", "Fire Princess", "Mad Sword Beast", "Hayabusa Knight", "Cat's Ear Tribe", "Amazoness Swords Woman", "Harpie Lady 3", "Fusilier Dragon the Dual-Mode Beast", "The Fiend Megacyber", "Blade Knight" (either effect), "Patrician of Darkness", or monsters like "Element Saurus" that gain ATK continuously.

Look it up under Fusilier or Divine Wrath. It isn't a condition. Conditions are made after an effect has resolved. Fusilier never resolves since it's continuous. Karate Man creates a condition on itself when you use his effect. We know that the condition is Disappears when Karate Man is flipped face down.

The point I made with Soul Exchange and Metamorphosis went unnoticed. =/
 
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anthonyj said:
The effect Cropz and I are referring to is this:

And No you can't tribute a face-down Fox Fire even if you are using Soul Exchange. But you can tribute a face-up Fox Fire when you have an active Skill Drain.
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Are you saying your opponent can't tribute Fox Fire, or the owner/controller can't? Because the only way the opponent knows that he can't tribute a face-down Fox Fire with Soul Exchange is if the controller reveals the card, and that hasn't been established by any of the rulings.
 
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The Fire Fox issue seems to be the exact opposite of the Metamorphosis v.s. Soul Exchange discussion. The controller of Fire Fox can't tribute it off for a Tribute summon but if they opponent uses Soul Exchange and targets a face down Fire Fox, then Fire Fox can be used to tribute summon a monster.

The fact of the matter is, it isn't like any of the Gardna cards which even state that it will be flipped face up to negate the spell card targetting it. Much different from how Fire Fox functions.

So this would be a legal situation according to the Metamoprhosis v.s. Soul Exchange discussion.

Player A has a face down Fire Fox on the field. Player B activates Soul Exchange and targets the face down monster. Player B tributes the face down monster for Airknight Parshath.

The reason this would be legal is because the Turn Player (Player B) has no knowledge of what that face down monster is. Thus, enabling him to use the monster as a tribute to Tribute Summon his Airknight Parshath.

Which plays perfectly with the Metamorphosis v.s. Soul Exchange discussion.

Player A has a face down Treeborn Frog. Player B activates Soul Exchange. Player B activates Metamorphosis.

Illegal situation. You can't tribute your opponent's face down monsters with Metamorphosis through Soul Exchange. You have no knowledge of the level that monster has. So you can't tribute it. But you can tribute a face down monster on your field with Metamorphosis.

Same is applied to you in this situation.

Player B has a Gemini Elf in attack position. Player A has a face down Fire Fox. Player A has Airknight Parshath and Enemy Controller in hand.

Player A can't use either one of those cards because he's the controller of Fire Fox. The controller of Fire Fox has knowledge of the stats that the monster has.

Which also goes back to the whole Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast discussion.

Player B controls a face down non-tributed Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast and Deck Devastation Virus. Player A summons Gemini Elf. Player A attacks.

Player B can't activate Deck Devastation Virus because he knows the stats of his monster. He controls the monster, there for that monster isn't a legal tribute for DDV.

The statistics of face down monsters aren't public knowledge. Only the controller of the card has that knowledge. Thus, cards like DDV only work if that knowledge reveals the card to be a valid use for cards like Metamorphosis or Deck Devastation Virus.

Which was what I was trying to get at with my original post in the first place.
 
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Whether the opponent can tribute Fox Fire face-down or not is irrelevent, that is simply an anomaly the Konami must decide how they want to work out.

The point is that the condition applies even while Fox Fire is face-down, which is what we are comparing when dealing with Fusilier Dragon
 
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Tkwiget said:
Which also goes back to the whole Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast discussion.

Player B controls a face down non-tributed Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast and Deck Devastation Virus. Player A summons Gemini Elf. Player A attacks.

Player B can't activate Deck Devastation Virus because he knows the stats of his monster. He controls the monster, there for that monster isn't a legal tribute for DDV.

The statistics of face down monsters aren't public knowledge. Only the controller of the card has that knowledge. Thus, cards like DDV only work if that knowledge reveals the card to be a valid use for cards like Metamorphosis or Deck Devastation Virus.

Which was what I was trying to get at with my original post in the first place.
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So, by this definition, I should be able to activate My Body as a Shield against Deck Devastation Virus if I know I have a face-down, set without tribute, Fusilier Dragon....
 
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You haven't given enough information for me to even answer that.

Draw up a scenario. =) Btw, I do have an idea of what you're getting at. I just don't like going off such a vague question.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Wasn't it ruled not too long ago that you couldn't tribute a face-down Double Coston for it's effect. Maybe I'm confuising that with the Kaibman reversal of last year.
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I remember the convo, Kaibaman and Double Coston are completely different.

Kaibaman is an Ignition, which you cannot activate while face-down, just like Hand of Nephthys.

Double Coston, Kaiser Sea Horse, Trojan Horse are perfectly fine to be tributed while face-down and will count as 2 tributes. They meet the tribute requirement even before you begin the Tribute Summon even if they are the only monster you control, because the condition is already taken into account.

Those "effects" are actually more like characteristics that carry with them.
 
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Tkwiget said:
You haven't given enough information for me to even answer that.

Draw up a scenario. =) Btw, I do have an idea of what you're getting at. I just don't like going off such a vague question.
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I thought it was pretty clear with all the consesus being that he is "1400" attack.

If my opponent activates Deck Devastation Virus, since I have a set without tribute Fusilier Dragon, I should be able to activate My Body as a Shield to negate and destroy Deck Devastation Virus because "I" know that he will be destroyed.

krazykidpsx said:
we came to the conclusion you couldn't because both players dont know what the creature is till after DDV has been activated.
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You cant "not know" for one effect, yet "know" for another one. Which is it??
 
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