Enemy Controller question

[kansashoops]

I just want to make sure this works as I think it does:

Opponent has one or more Scapegoat tokens in face up defense position. I have D.D. Assailant in attack position. I declare an attack on a token and ask for a response (assuming that my opponent has one or more cards set in his spell/trap zone). Opponent declines. I then chain Enemy Controller from my hand to the declaration of the attack, switching the token to attack position, and D.D. Assailant destroys him and does 1700 damage.

This is all kosher, correct?

 

[Jason_C]

It is not opinion, it is fact. Being the turn player gives you priority. After that, you and your opponent pass priority back and forth. Before an attack is declared, the last thing to happen will be the opponent passing priority to you. You then declare the attack, and since attacks do not use the chain, you still have priority after the attack. If it were possible to chain to an attack, then the opponent would get a chance to respond. But it's not, and they don't.

-pssvr

<EDIT: MUST TYPE FASTER, @#$% YOU!!!> o_0 never mind

 

[Tkwiget]

The thing you have to consider is, I could be wrong and I wouldn't doubt it if a higher level judge that knows WAAAAY the heck more than all of us drops in and owns us all with a tiny little post. That'd just make my day and I'd laugh at myself for continuously posting in a thread that just got above 100 posts. XD

 

[anthonyj]

No actually it isn't.

When we are talking about the Damage Step this is the case because there is a single "Everything happens here" window to activate something like Rush Recklessly, if you pass on activating an effect and your opponent doesn't activate an effect you are moving straight into Damage Calculation.

For the rest of the phases look at the options for resolving things in the End Phase for a clue. Turn player may select an effect that can be resolved in the End Phase, or may pass to the non-turn player to select an effect to resolve, if non-turn player passes then it is mandatory for the turn player to resolve an effect that must be resolved.

Throughout most phases you can opt to allow the non-turn player to activate an effect without giving up your ability to still do something in that phase. Simply offering your opponent the option to create a chain does not relinquish all rights to do so during a Phase. That is why it has been said you cannot move to the next Phase until both players agree. It is not a one time opportunity and then the game ushers you along into the next thing. Where from any ruling has it ever been discussed that passing on "summoning priority" so that the non-turn player can respond would close the window on activating a monsters effect? Isn't that what you are suggesting. I summon Tribe Infecting Virus and do not wish to activate the effect immediately. I ask my opponent if they wish to respond. They decline. Now I am forced to go into the Battle Phase? I don't think so.

 

[skey23]

As far as I know there is nothing that gives you priority when attacking. (This game is different than VS.) In reality you are using your priority to call an attack.

****WARNING****Ranting involved...Ranting involved****

You don't have Priority to declare an attack. You don't have Priority to summon. You don't have Priority to Draw a card. YOU ARE THE TURN PLAYER!! You DO EVERYTHING 1st because it's how the game works..lol.

Drawing a card does not use the chain. Summoning a monster does not use the chain. Declaring an attack does not use the chain. They all create response points for BOTH players to respond to. Being the Turn Player gives YOU the right to respond to these actions 1st, or choose not to respond so your opponent can. Why is this so hard to understand? It's a VERY SIMPLE concept...lol. Pretty much the ONLY time the Turn Player doesn't get a chance to manually decide to 'use' their Priority 1st is when a continuous or triggered effect automatically forces itself into link 1 of the response chain. Cards like "King Tiger Wanghu" and "Stumbling" come to mind for this.

For Tkwiget: No offense intended here, but...You are correct. The same scenario you've posted 10 times now is correct. There is nothing wrong with that scenario, it's perfectly correct. Nobody is ignoring you, you've been told several times now that your scenario is correct. There is no need to keep reposting it over and over again. All you have to do is refer back to one of them and that is fine.

For Tiso: There are NO 'official' released documents on Priority. The ONLY thing we have to go on are the rulings we're given and from little tidbits here and there given by Kevin and a few others from UDE. That being said, the way that Priority has been explained to you by myself and by others here 'seems' to be the accepted standard. If I'm wrong, so be it. I'll more than gladly accept the 'truth' when it comes out.

For pssvr: I'm still of the mindset to agree with Novastar on this one. It's been said by Kevin himself that after a Summon, both players can pass on their response priority and the Turn Player can still activate "Torrential Tribute" in response to the summon. Granted, we're not talking about Summoning, we're talking about an attack declaration, but the situation is still very similar. And I do understand what your saying about the infinite "I don't respond, do you?" game that could be created from this.

There, I think I'm done now.

 

[Jason_C]

Anthony:

Not quite. Profoundly close, but you have missed my point by about half an inch. In the case of TIV not wanting to use the effect immediately, that is because there are strict limitations on what can be done in response to a summon. More importantly, those restrictions are stricter than the limits on what can be done during the main phase as a whole. *breathes* this is gonna take a lot of typing. Scenarios:

#1. I summon TIV, and do not want to use its effect. I pass.
Opponent also passes.
Response opportunity is closed, welcome to non-responsive window. I can now activate anything that could normally be activated in the main phase. You are now free to move about the country.

#2. I declare an attack, and do not wish to respond. I pass.
Opponent passes.
Welcome to the DAMAGE STEP. Why? Because:

In example #1, the opportunity to respond to the summon allows only for SS1 (spell speed 1) ignition effects and SS2 effects of any kind. It DOES NOT allow for SS1 effects of any kind, ONLY for ignitions and SS2s. HOWEVER, in example #2, the response oportunity after the attack allowed for SS2 effects of any kind and SS1 effects like Spirit Ryu, which is ALL THAT CAN EVER BE ACTIVATED IN THE BATTLE STEP. In other words, there are things you might want to activate in the main phase that you could not activate via "summoning priority", while there is nothing you could possibly activate in the Battle Step that could not be activated via "attack priority". Do you see what I mean, or have I failed to put this into words properly? Mind you, I'm not an author, so if my explanation sounds like a jumble, it probably is...
-pssvr

 

[Jason_C]

Monkey man:

I think I get what you're saying. But then, no I don't. Because to be perfectly honest, I can't see how that conflicts with what I said...
-pssvr

 

[anthonyj]

Anthony:

Not quite. Profoundly close, but you have missed my point by about half an inch. In the case of TIV not wanting to use the effect immediately, that is because there are strict limitations on what can be done in response to a summon. More importantly, those restrictions are stricter than the limits on what can be done during the main phase as a whole. *breathes* this is gonna take a lot of typing. Scenarios:

#1. I summon TIV, and do not want to use its effect. I pass.
Opponent also passes.
Response opportunity is closed, welcome to non-responsive window. I can now activate anything that could normally be activated in the main phase. You are now free to move about the country.

#2. I declare an attack, and do not wish to respond. I pass.
Opponent passes.
Welcome to the DAMAGE STEP. Why? Because:

In example #1, the opportunity to respond to the summon allows only for SS1 (spell speed 1) ignition effects and SS2 effects of any kind. It DOES NOT allow for SS1 effects of any kind, ONLY for ignitions and SS2s. HOWEVER, in example #2, the response oportunity after the attack allowed for SS2 effects of any kind and SS1 effects like Spirit Ryu, which is ALL THAT CAN EVER BE ACTIVATED IN THE BATTLE STEP. In other words, there are things you might want to activate in the main phase that you could not activate via "summoning priority", while there is nothing you could possibly activate in the Battle Step that could not be activated via "attack priority". Do you see what I mean, or have I failed to put this into words properly? Mind you, I'm not an author, so if my explanation sounds like a jumble, it probably is...
-pssvr

Please re-read what Simon wrote then because what you said here and what he said just the next post up are polar opposites. You are incorrect. The window does not close from both players passing. The turn player can still activate anything he likes after he passes priority and the non-turn player passes. You are applying the Damage Step rules regarding response and chaining to every other Phase of the game.

 

[Tiso]

Note: Only a second response in the Battle Step can happen if a Chain Block was created and resolves in response to a monster attacking.

EDIT: So what you're saying is I have no clue what I'm talking about?

I am saying that because this is just your own conclusions on how priority works, opinion, that I cannot possibly take it as right or wrong until I get more 100% official proof. I been spending the last hour reading the Priority 101 post in the Articles section and this just further confuses the situation. The post starts out with how most people would have played the situation, but then goes into the way you are explaining it. There was one poster, probably around post 5-6 that said the Yu-Gi-Oh! Power of Chaos (NOTE: Not game, but a simulation) would be the most accurate we could rely on. Giving that for every action, including summon, declare your attack, the turn player has priority. Of course this could be due to programming errors, but I think the errors would be on how cards work instead of actual game mechanics in that case. Then on top of that we have some "coming soon" letter posted there from Kevin Tewart about a priority document coming soon. This is the reason why people quit said games, like Yu-Gi-Oh! in the first place. Well, until I get some more further proof I am going to see if my Power of Chaos supports your statement and just go about playing it that way. I already made sure to notify my friends who play and their groups to come read these posts and get a better grasp on how this priority issue is supposed or should or whatever work.

 

[Jason_C]

I reread what Tkwiget said. And frankly, I just don't see how it can be true. Which is not remotely accusing Tkwiget of being wrong, but rather accusing Kevin himself of being wrong. Am I correct that this is what's being said?

P1 summons TIV, and does not respond. Pass.
P2 does not wish to respond. Pass.
P1 now may activate Torrential Tribute here.

That simply doesn't make sense. It DIRECTLY supports the idea of endless passing, that you can simply pass and pass and pass and never move on to another point in the game as long as someone *MIGHT* want to respond. Even if anyone with a brain can tell that no one wants to respond (like if nobody has anything face down) there would still be a response opportunity. Or have I completely missed the point here?

-pssvr

 

[Tiso]

Please re-read what Simon wrote then because what you said here and what he said just the next post up are polar opposites. You are incorrect. The window does not close from both players passing. The turn player can still activate anything he likes after he passes priority and the non-turn player passes. You are applying the Damage Step rules regarding response and chaining to every other Phase of the game.

I just wanted to ask a question on that. Just to be clear, you meant if I attack with a monster, pass up my turn priority to use Enemy Controller, my opponent passes up his/her priority, the window does not close and I can then activate Enemy Controller? Is that what you were saying or no?

 

[skey23]

**pssst...Hey Tiso....I told you we had some good discussions didn't I! Back when you 1st signed up..lol..***

 

[Jason_C]

This may well be the most intriguing debate we've ever had. And Tiso, I think that is what he's saying.

-pssvr

 

[Tiso]

**pssst...Hey Tiso....I told you we had some good discussions didn't I! Back when you 1st signed up..lol..***

Seriously, it is grade A goodness right down the middle. Lol.

 

[novastar]

You don't have Priority to declare an attack. You don't have Priority to summon. You don't have Priority to Draw a card. YOU ARE THE TURN PLAYER!! You DO EVERYTHING 1st because it's how the game works..lol.

Priority actually does include those actions as well. That is why you "retain" Priority after actions such as those which does not use the Chain Block.

How? Well, for example, when you begin a Phase/Step you have a Non-Response point, and "Priority" is with the Turn Player to act first.

The concept of "Priority" is very misunderstood...obviously due to lack of comprehensive rules, but in general, it is the right of the Turn Player to go first, whether it be an action (ie. Summoning), activating and effect (Magic/Trap/Monster) or determining the order of effects placed on the Chain Block (Triggers).

For pssvr: I'm still of the mindset to agree with Novastar on this one. It's been said by Kevin himself that after a Summon, both players can pass on their response priority and the Turn Player can still activate "Torrential Tribute" in response to the summon. Granted, we're not talking about Summoning, we're talking about an attack declaration, but the situation is still very similar. And I do understand what your saying about the infinite "I don't respond, do you?" game that could be created from this.

Funny thing is, i couldn't disagree more with Kevin on this.

I have never, ever, seen any documentation to support Kevin's ideas at all except from word of mouth from L3's. I HAVE seen plenty of documentation to support the opposite...

My thoughts are and always will be that both you and your opponent get 1...thats 1 opportunity to create a Response Chain to an event. If you both agree not to, timing is over...

This "last fact" idea is just erroneous. It allows the Turn Player to cheat, and force the opponent to go first...which is completely incorrect.

 

[novastar]

I just wanted to ask a question on that. Just to be clear, you meant if I attack with a monster, pass up my turn priority to use Enemy Controller, my opponent passes up his/her priority, the window does not close and I can then activate Enemy Controller? Is that what you were saying or no?

Attack timing would be over...so no Magic Cylinder and the like.

But you can start a Non-Response Chain directly afterwords and use Enemy Controller...since it doesn't have attack timing.

It is actually more like closing one window (attack response timing), and opening another (no response timing).

 

[skey23]

I reread what Tkwiget said.

Hey!..When did he become me?...um..er I become him?...um..err...well..huh?

And frankly, I just don't see how it can be true. Which is not remotely accusing 'him' of being wrong, but rather accusing Kevin himself of being wrong. Am I correct that this is what's being said?

P1 summons TIV, and does not respond. Pass.
P2 does not wish to respond. Pass.
P1 now may activate Torrential Tribute here.

Yes. That is what has been told to us by Kevin. Now whether or not it carries over into all areas of the game is still unknown.

That simply doesn't make sense. It DIRECTLY supports the idea of endless passing, that you can simply pass and pass and pass and never move on to another point in the game as long as someone *MIGHT* want to respond.

And that's why I said I can understand your frustration with this. We've discussed this thing several times in the past and sent numerous emails to all of the Judge's Lists with no 'concrete' responses back. I can tell you this, Novastar is RARELY incorrect about how things work, especially if he's had to go and do research about it. So if he says there are two response points BEFORE the timing is considered to be 'missed' or 'ended', then it's more than likely correct. Now if he is correct, then that eliminates the 'endless loop'.

I just wanted to ask a question on that. Just to be clear, you meant if I attack with a monster, pass up my turn priority to use Enemy Controller, my opponent passes up his/her priority, the window does not close and I can then activate Enemy Controller? Is that what you were saying or no?

Yes, that's what is being said by myself and Anthonyj. Tkwiget and pssvr don't agree on this (if I'm not mistaken).

 

[Jason_C]

My apologies for making you him / him you / the sky rain pickles.

And I am definetely on Novastar's side here, for the record. *pulls out record book*

-pssvr

 

[skey23]

Priority actually does include those actions as well. That is why you "retain" Priority after actions such as those which does not use the Chain Block.

Ok, I HAVE to disagree here..lol. Draw Phase begins, how do I have priority to Draw a card? I'm the Turn Player. My opponent can't just draw a card from their deck during MY Draw Phase, it's MY Draw Phase. I'm the ONLY one that can draw a card right now, at this time. It's a fact of the game. Now, once I draw a card, THEN Priority kicks in and goes, well, since you're the Turn Player, you have to choose whether or not to respond to your Draw or not. If we BOTH drew cards at the same time during a 'unified' Draw Phase, then I could understand one player retaining priority to act 1st this time, and the other next time, but that's not how this game works.

How? Well, for example, when you begin a Phase/Step you have a Non-Response point, and "Priority" is with the Turn Player to act first.

I agree, but you're 'responding' to the end/beginning of each phase. So there would be a response point for each one. Once the 'timing' for that response point is over, you continue on as normal. So if we're going from my Standby Phase to my Main Phase 1, then there would be a response point at the end of the Standby Phase, and a response point at the beginning of Main Phase 1. Then we move into Main Phase 1 normally. Again, it MY Main Phase 1 so my oppnent can't just Summon or Set a monster, it's MY Main Phase..lol. I am the ONLY player that can do this at this time. Where is the Priority in that?

The concept of "Priority" is very misunderstood...obviously due to lack of comprehensive rules, but in general, it is the right of the Turn Player to go first, whether it be an action (ie. Summoning), activating and effect (Magic/Trap/Monster) or determining the order of effects placed on the Chain Block (Triggers).

Couldn't have said it better myself..lol.

Funny thing is, i couldn't disagree more with Kevin on this.

I have never, ever, seen any documentation to support Kevin's ideas at all except from word of mouth from L3's. I HAVE seen plenty of documentation to support the opposite...

My thoughts are and always will be that both you and your opponent get 1...thats 1 opportunity to create a Response Chain to an event. If you both agree not to, timing is over...

This "last fact" idea is just erroneous. It allows the Turn Player to cheat, and force the opponent to go first...which is completely incorrect.

What's sad is that I would guess the majority of people agree 100% with your line of thinking, but unfortunately for us Judges, we HAVE to rule (and even defend) based on the information given to us, even if it's erroneous.

 

[Jason_C]

Quote:
novastar is quoted to have said:
Priority actually does include those actions as well. That is why you "retain" Priority after actions such as those which does not use the Chain Block.

Ok, I HAVE to disagree here..lol. Draw Phase begins, how do I have priority to Draw a card? I'm the Turn Player. My opponent can't just draw a card from their deck during MY Draw Phase, it's MY Draw Phase. I'm the ONLY one that can draw a card right now, at this time. It's a fact of the game. Now, once I draw a card, THEN Priority kicks in and goes, well, since you're the Turn Player, you have to choose whether or not to respond to your Draw or not. If we BOTH drew cards at the same time during a 'unified' Draw Phase, then I could understand one player retaining priority to act 1st this time, and the other next time, but that's not how this game works.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but you are simply wrong. Priority DOES include those actions. Think about this: When was the last time you summoned a monster when your opponent had priority? You have priority to do those things, and since they do not use the chain, you retain priority afterwards...

-pssvr

 

[skey23]

Think about this: When was the last time you summoned a monster when your opponent had priority? You have priority to do those things, and since they do not use the chain, you retain priority afterwards...

No, I can do these things because as the Turn Player I am the ONLY one that CAN do them! It has nothing to do with Priority. Can my opponent draw a card at the same time I can during MY Draw Phase?..No. Can my opponent Normal Summon or Set (not by an effect) a monster during MY Main Phase?..No. Can my opponent declare an attack during MY Battle Phase?..No.

WHY? Because THEY are NOT the Turn Player!..lol.

[edit]Man I love good debates like this!...lol