Exchange of the Spirit & Penguin Knight

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NLFW said:
puppiy is like the japanese netrep...what I meant is that in japan effect like Penguin Knight's or makyura's are not activated by Exchange of spirits...
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But as usual, we run into the distinct possibility that the OCG rulings for the one situation will not match the TCG ruling on the same situation. We already have one conflicting answer from the Judges List Spanish to show how easily that can happen.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Shouldn't matter. The effect of Penguin Knight isn't looking for an effect to "send" it to the Graveyard from the Deck. It just wan't it to go there. Exchange of the Spirit still sends it there. This isn't a "send" vs "discard" issue. This is merely an effect that want's card to be "here" and go directly to "there". The method it goes there is irrelevant.
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I believe the text on Penguin Knight is looking for an effect that sends it to the graveyard. I would say swapping would not be the same as sent. I would think that a card in a deck would be look at as a unknown card until it is drawn,picked up. or sent;not swapped as Exchange of the Spirit is worded. Probably the only real way to clarify this case would be to have a definite answer from the judge list(English version). If Penguin Knight works then would not a whole slew of other cards work such as Despair from the Dark and Fear from the Dark? This would be insane!! Has anybody here posted this to the list to be answered?
 
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Big Oldprankster said:
I believe the text on Penguin Knight is looking for an effect that sends it to the graveyard. I would say swapping would not be the same as sent. I would think that a card in a deck would be look at as a unknown card until it is drawn,picked up. or sent;not swapped as Exchange of the Spirit is worded. Probably the only real way to clarify this case would be to have a definite answer from the judge list(English version). If Penguin Knight works then would not a whole slew of other cards work such as Despair from the Dark and Fear from the Dark? This would be insane!! Has anybody here posted this to the list to be answered?
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Well, as I mentioned before, there is no reason or precedence to think that "swap" is some new game term. Swaping still involves "sending" the content of one area to another area. The cards still get sent. "Send" has always been a generic term in this game. This is why effects that trigger from being sent have always triggered from whatever method sent them. Saying that "swap" is different from "send" implies a new game mechanic that I have never heard of. How else can one swap the contents of one are with the other without sending them there. That's like saying I "went" to Florida on vacation, but I never "traveled" there. It's not possible.
 
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It possibly may be a new mechanic. I can not think of any other cards in the English game that says"swap" can you? I don't truly know, that is why I asked if someone sent this to the list. I can see it from both sides of the fence. There have been valid points for and against. Lets say you were the head judge of a regional and this question was appealed to you. How would you rule? Of course you would say "yes it activates Penguin Knights effect". End of story since you are head judge and what you say is final. Now the same player goes to a different regional the next with myself as the head judge. Same scenerio but different ruling. I say the effect does not activate Penguin Knights effect. This is what players hate the most. There are enough high level judges on this site that maybe we should go with a consenus until we get a definitive ruling from UDE. Personally I like to hear how other people view things because it puts a different perspective on things.
 
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Big Oldprankster said:
It possibly may be a new mechanic. I can not think of any other cards in the English game that says"swap" can you? I don't truly know, that is why I asked if someone sent this to the list. I can see it from both sides of the fence. There have been valid points for and against. Lets say you were the head judge of a regional and this question was appealed to you. How would you rule? Of course you would say "yes it activates Penguin Knights effect". End of story since you are head judge and what you say is final. Now the same player goes to a different regional the next with myself as the head judge. Same scenerio but different ruling. I say the effect does not activate Penguin Knights effect. This is what players hate the most. There are enough high level judges on this site that maybe we should go with a consenus until we get a definitive ruling from UDE. Personally I like to hear how other people view things because it puts a different perspective on things.
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Not to be rude... but the mechanics haven't changed. There only came another dimension to the word of sending. In the words of: does sending include swapping. That is the only question actually we are debating about.
 
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Well, I see "Pick up" and "Draw" as interchangeable, but we all know that effects that tell you to "pick up" a card from your Deck is not the same as "Draw a card" from your deck, and you would not get a life point gain from cards like Solemn Wishes for picking up cards for the effect of Cyber Jar.

And yes, when you draw cards, how else are they going to get to your hand unless you "pick them up".

So just like cards are always "sent", cards are always "picked up" as well, but you only get certain effects when it allows the picked up card to be CONSIDERED a Draw.

This same action should apply to Penguin Knight. Unless he is specifically sent from an effect in the act of "picking up", and not "drawing", then he should not get his effect if he is swapped from Deck to Graveyard as a "unknown" card from within the whole Deck.

Swap shouldnt be a new mechanic. It is what it is. You aren't sending cards to the Graveyard, and you arent sending cards back to your Deck.

Your Deck "becomes" your Graveyard, while the cards that previously resided there become your Deck.


In addition, how is this any different than what we discussed about a face-down Sangan, Deck Devastation Virus, and My Body as a Shield? If the game state cannot recognize a card that the controller knows would be affected by Deck Devastation Virus, then how can the controller of Penguin Knight activate an effect from his Deck under the same condition.
 
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Big Oldprankster said:
Name another card that says "swap"? All I am implying this is a new term.
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Creature Swap ;) But I agree, for Yu-Gi-Oh! the Exchange of the Spirit gives a new problem with wording. But I still stand my point, that EotS would trigger the effect of Penguin Knight, since EotS merely 'sends', because the other 2 options (discard, destroying), even don't come close. And there are no things further about swapping, indeed. Unless Konami/UDE come up with rulings about it, sending comes the most close to what is meant.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Well, I see "Pick up" and "Draw" as interchangeable, but we all know that effects that tell you to "pick up" a card from your Deck is not the same as "Draw a card" from your deck, and you would not get a life point gain from cards like Solemn Wishes for picking up cards for the effect of Cyber Jar.

And yes, when you draw cards, how else are they going to get to your hand unless you "pick them up".

So just like cards are always "sent", cards are always "picked up" as well, but you only get certain effects when it allows the picked up card to be CONSIDERED a Draw.

This same action should apply to Penguin Knight. Unless he is specifically sent from an effect in the act of "picking up", and not "drawing", then he should not get his effect if he is swapped from Deck to Graveyard as a "unknown" card from within the whole Deck.

Swap shouldnt be a new mechanic. It is what it is. You aren't sending cards to the Graveyard, and you arent sending cards back to your Deck.

Your Deck "becomes" your Graveyard, while the cards that previously resided there become your Deck.
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You should take the 'swap' more literal. The fact that there is an Exchange, doesn't mean that effects that 'send' don't activate. Penguin Knight is still send to the Graveyard, because of the effect of Exchange of the Spirit. Doesn't matter at all that the complete Deck comes with it....
 
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BenjaminMS said:
You should take the 'swap' more literal. The fact that there is an Exchange, doesn't mean that effects that 'send' don't activate. Penguin Knight is still send to the Graveyard, because of the effect of Exchange of the Spirit. Doesn't matter at all that the complete Deck comes with it....
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Lets say the next card on top of your deck is Penguin Knight. Your opponent actvates Exchange of the Spirit. Now Penguin Knight is the bottom of your graveyard. How can you justify be ing able to sift through your graveyard and say"Oh!! heres an effect that activated and oh Despair from the Dark activated and Fear from the Dark and on and on". That is what I meant from a card being unknown until it is drawn, picked up, or discarded. Penguin Knight is part of a unit called the deck. It is being swapped as a whole with the graveyard. You do not pick each card up and place it in the graveyard. It is done as a unit.
 
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First off, there is no issue here on whether the Game State knows if it's a Penguin Knight or not. Puguin Knight is the one who activates his own effect, and he does that on the Graveyard, the Game has nothing to do with it. This is not a new mechanic here. In additon, the Game doesn't even matter what it does or doesn't know in this case. A face-down Sangan still activates when sent to the Graveyard face-down. These are all well esatblished mechanics.

Secondly, I highly doubt that we were introuduced to a new Game Term without the inclusion of it in the rulings. Remember, send is a generic term. It looks for the process of going from here to there. no matter how it got from here to there.

Also, Pick-up vs Draw doesn't apply here either. Draw is a game function. Pick-up is a game function. One places the cards into your hand. The other does not. Swap and send can have no such clear cut distinction. One puts the card into the Graveyard but the other does not? You can see the flaws in that logic.
 
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Big Oldprankster said:
Lets say the next card on top of your deck is Penguin Knight. Your opponent actvates Exchange of the Spirit. Now Penguin Knight is the bottom of your graveyard. How can you justify be ing able to sift through your graveyard and say"Oh!! heres an effect that activated and oh Despair from the Dark activated and Fear from the Dark and on and on". That is what I meant from a card being unknown until it is drawn, picked up, or discarded. Penguin Knight is part of a unit called the deck. It is being swapped as a whole with the graveyard. You do not pick each card up and place it in the graveyard. It is done as a unit.
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And yet, how else is Penguin Knights effect going to activate? It HAS to be sent from the deck. There is no "the card is an unknown" issue to this effect. It's a Graveyard activated effect that looks to see if it was sent from the deck when it hits the Graveyard.
 
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Big Oldprankster said:
Lets say the next card on top of your deck is Penguin Knight. Your opponent actvates Exchange of the Spirit. Now Penguin Knight is the bottom of your graveyard. How can you justify be ing able to sift through your graveyard and say"Oh!! heres an effect that activated and oh Despair from the Dark activated and Fear from the Dark and on and on". That is what I meant from a card being unknown until it is drawn, picked up, or discarded. Penguin Knight is part of a unit called the deck. It is being swapped as a whole with the graveyard. You do not pick each card up and place it in the graveyard. It is done as a unit.
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The game doesn't need to know. It already DOES know. Bit weird example: if Exchange of the Spirit is played, and the game wants to continue... Then the card will pop up and say: 'Hey, you forget something'. It's true, it is MOVED as a whole staple. But the CARDS must be checked too. I think you won't like it if after a short look, after a few turns, it turned out to be that you won, because some effects activated because some cards went to the Graveyard....
 
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Let me add to that, do we have a problem with multiple Graveyard activated effects triggering if the field is Dark Holed? The monsters all hit the Graveyard as a "unit", or at the same time. Multiple cards hitting your Graveyard simultaneously have never been an issue for whether Graveyard activated effects will trigger.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Let me add to that, do we have a problem with multiple Graveyard activated effects triggering if the field is Dark Holed? The monsters all hit the Graveyard as a "unit", or at the same time. Multiple cards hitting your Graveyard simultaneously have never been an issue for whether Graveyard activated effects will trigger.
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No what you are saying is different here. Thosecards hitting the graveyard have already been introduced to the game from being on the field.
 
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Big Oldprankster said:
No what you are saying is different here. Thosecards hitting the graveyard have already been introduced to the game from being on the field.
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A face-down card already introduced? You got to be kidding...

Now we are talking about the field, bit comparing with Penguin Knight vs. Exchange of the Spirit:

One face-down Sangan is on the field.
The opponent has a Mystic Swordsman LV2 on the field, and destroys the f/d Sangan. Was there a way the opponent (and with your words: the game) already could know it? Nope.
However, the Sangan still activates. I think you'd agree with such a example... If so, why not then Penguin vs. EotS?
 
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Big Oldprankster said:
No what you are saying is different here. Thosecards hitting the graveyard have already been introduced to the game from being on the field.
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Peguin Knight does not need to be introuduced the game. It can't be introuduced in the context you refer to. It has to bein the deck for it's effect to even trigger. It needs to be in the deck first and then in the Graveyard second. The Game does not need to know anything. This is a manditory effect triggering because the conditions where met. A face-down Sangan is not known by the Game. But it still triggers if destroyed face-down. These are Graveyard activated effects. They trigger regardles if they hit the Graveyard in a stack or indivudually.
 
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A face-down Sangan destroyed by Mystic Swordsman LV2...

How did we know that Sangan was destroyed? Because when it went to the Graveyard it went face-up as an individual card, in this case, so we can say that "here is a card that activates in the Graveyard."

Now, you guys say that the controller of Penguin Knight gets to look through his Graveyard and pull out every card that can possibly activate as a Graveyard effect, because he knows it is in there??!!!

Well, this is going nowhere fast. We have one camp that says no, and the other that says yes. I say let those who have the final word give us the answer because no matter what the camp that says "yes" says, it still doesnt sound correct, and I think the "no's" have provided a more stable reason for why it shouldnt.

I dont understand how replacing your Graveyard with your Deck and vice versa can be considered "sending".

If I take a card from my hand, and replace it with one in my Graveyard, when did I send anything??
 
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