Exchange of the Spirit & Penguin Knight

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We can sit here and argue all night which does no good for a real answer. I still feel this card is exchanging your deck for your graveyard not sending. You guys feel otherwise. You could be right. I don't really care one way or the other, all I want is a definitity answer.
 
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BenjaminMS said:
About 2 minutes after I posted: 'Judge's List/Curtis?'. I did send to his e-mail... or is that the wrong way, lol?
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Boy I'm glad I didn't post it to the Judge's List as well!..lol.

BTW...Benjamin, all Judges were given access to here:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/?forum=judge-yu

I believe everybody can read it, but only Judges can actually log in and post new questions. THIS is where you are supposed to post questions to the Judge's List, not by sending them to Curtis' email addy..lol. He probably doesn't respond to anything sent directly to him anymore..lol.
 
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dont worry, benjamin. Neither am I. The point is to make these judges here earn their keep. You wont feel as bad about not being a judge if you think of them as your errand boys. ;) Make them do all the tedious posting and stuff.

Works for me, at least :p
 
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::sigh::

i guess this is the reason why OCG cards never make it to the TCG game. they cause too much trouble.

first off, Swap and Send arnt the same.

Cyber Jar says, PIck up and place / put. it doesnt state draw and since it doesnt you cannot deck out. We already know this.

Morphing Jar says, DRAW 5 cards but lets say there are only 3 so you will lose because you cannot draw. We already know this.

Swap is Pick up and place / Put.
Send is DRAW.

arguements?

thats pick up and draw are the same if both cards get placed in your hand by an effect.

if this is the case, wouldnt you deck out with Cyber Jar if your remining cards are only 2-4.

and if that is the case, why the term pick up and not draw?

how many other cards have the text PICK UP and not DRAW on them.

if we are getting literal, then by all means, why not do a banisher / Exchange abuse deck?

would you say, that destroy = send? if so, wouldnt Woodland Sprite + Butter Fly dager elma combo work ?
 
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"Pick-up" and "draw" are not the same, and you can add a card to your hand without picking it up nor drawing. Yet if you draw Watapon it's effect will still activate. (and of course if it's picked-upped and added to the hand)

Similarly, "sent" is never an exclusive term. Cards that are Tributed are sent to the graveyard, cards that are destroyed are sent to the graveyard, cards that are discarded are sent to the graveyard, cards that are removed from play and returned to the graveyard are sent to the graveyard. If it's in the graveyard it had to be sent there. There's nothing specially terminological about "sent." It's just a word that means a card was "caused to go" from one place to another.
 
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Discard doesnt = sent, we understand that right?

because a card that gets discarded can end up RFP.

so with that beign, not everything is always sent.

if sent was such a general term why is it that card doesnt state, "Seperate your graveyard from your graveyard zone. Then Send all the cards in your deck to the graveyard. Then shuffle your old Graveyard and place it face down on the field as your deck."

not it doesnt does it. it says swap, meaning the game realized that the number of cards in the graveyard changed but not if stuff got sent there.

meaning, if lets say there were 2 makyura's in the deck and you swap the deck with graveyard, would you say that its effect activate?

the opponent wouldnt know what your playing. and all cards in your deck are considered blank effectless cards untill you play them or you have it in your hand. And even then, all your opponent sees is just cards, no effects. not yet atleast.
 
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And that's a very valid point. Aren't cards in your Deck basically effectless unless targeted by an effect? Lets say your opponent activates Dark Designator and calls Penguin Knight. Now, Penguin Knight has been specifically chosen by an effect to be sent from Deck to Hand.

If your oppoent then activates D.D. Designator and selects Penguin Knight, then that card has now been selected to be removed from game and is sent to the removed from game pile.

This is two situations where Penguin Knight was selected by a card effect "specifically".

Simultaneous Loss would also trigger Penguin Knight's effect because it says "send" the top card to the Graveyard, and if it happened to be Penguin Knight, then it would activate. In the situation where Penguin Knight is buried inbetween 20-25 cards in your Deck, how can you tell me that Exchange of the Spirit is "sending" Penguin Knight anywhere, as an effectless card if it never left the deck???

Your whole Deck is being swapped, or "moved" to another location. It's only saying that your Graveyard is now your Deck. Since your Deck cannot exist in the Graveyard and still be considered your "Deck", you have to move it to its Appropriate spot. The same with your Graveyard.

What interpretation can be used to say that anything is being sent, under these conditions??
 
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krazykidpsx said:
Discard doesnt = sent, we understand that right?

because a card that gets discarded can end up RFP.

so with that beign, not everything is always sent.

if sent was such a general term why is it that card doesnt state, "Seperate your graveyard from your graveyard zone. Then Send all the cards in your deck to the graveyard. Then shuffle your old Graveyard and place it face down on the field as your deck."

not it doesnt does it. it says swap, meaning the game realized that the number of cards in the graveyard changed but not if stuff got sent there.

meaning, if lets say there were 2 makyura's in the deck and you swap the deck with graveyard, would you say that its effect activate?

the opponent wouldnt know what your playing. and all cards in your deck are considered blank effectless cards untill you play them or you have it in your hand. And even then, all your opponent sees is just cards, no effects. not yet atleast.
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I dont quite agree with that first part. Discard does = sent. Sent does not necessarily = discard.

The term Discard has be identified as a specific function. Whether the card discarded gets sent to the Graveyard, or sent to the RFP zone, it still is sent somewhere.

Its just that with EoS, there hasnt been any defined space to group the term "swap". I can't think of any other card effect that says that.

The game state has to recognize which cards were changed out of the Graveyard somehow, considering how many effects revolve around them. The cards are face up public knowledge of both players. Effects that trigger when sent to the Graveyard should be able to activate here, if only because there has never been any indication that 'sent' is a specific term.

By saying that swap would only be determining a change in card numbers in the Grave, makes it sound possible to activate Exchange of the Spirit with Necrovalley active on the field, as long as the number of cards in your Deck were more than the number of cards in your Graveyard, so that the number count didnt reflect that any cards were 'removed'.

I read earlier where the OCG rules don't allow for Makyura or Penguin Knight to work when sent to the Grave through EoS. But unless Konami defines 'sent' as a specific term separate from 'swap' then my gut feeling is it has a bit of BKSS to it.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
"Pick-up" and "draw" are not the same, and you can add a card to your hand without picking it up nor drawing. Yet if you draw Watapon it's effect will still activate. (and of course if it's picked-upped and added to the hand)

Similarly, "sent" is never an exclusive term. Cards that are Tributed are sent to the graveyard, cards that are destroyed are sent to the graveyard, cards that are discarded are sent to the graveyard, cards that are removed from play and returned to the graveyard are sent to the graveyard. If it's in the graveyard it had to be sent there. There's nothing specially terminological about "sent." It's just a word that means a card was "caused to go" from one place to another.
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Not exactly...

When used as a requirement or "trigger" yes, "sent/send" is a generic in nature.

When used as a manual action performed by a player..."send/sent" is a specific term, It will only trigger or affect other effects looking specifically for a "send/sent."

For example the cost for CED, will specifically "send" cards to the Graveyard, and not trigger destruction/discard/tribute triggers.

That seems to be the general rule of thumb.

...of course there could be other more obscure reasons why they use the term send in certain cases.

For example, you can't "tribute" Spell/Trap Cards from the field, so a send must be performed. So, in the case of CED, Spell/Traps might be present on the field, so you must use a send in order to have those cards apply (going with the first point).

Overall "send/sent" is not as black and white to explain, but there is no doubt that it is a mechanic that is used by the game. It's seems to be a jack-of-all-trades that can either be exclusive or be an all-of-the-above.
 
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Does Miracle Dig send Peten to the graveyard? It certainly ends up there. Strange how rulings point to a certain case:
When a monster removed with "Different Dimension Gate" is sent to the Graveyard with "Miracle Dig", the monster won't return to the field when "Different Dimension Gate" is destroyed, but the other monster removed with "Different Dimension Gate" will still return to the field.
Digital Jedi said:
But as usual, we run into the distinct possibility that the OCG rulings for the one situation will not match the TCG ruling on the same situation. We already have one conflicting answer from the Judges List Spanish to show how easily that can happen.
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Well, I would blame Kevin Tewart for that. Spanish judge list is under his jurisdiction.
daivahataka said:
Sure didn't the OCG & CCG have different rulings on Hallowed Life Barrier for a long time? OCG ruled it as an Uber-Waboku.
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The JERP still has that ruling (though that section hasn't been updated in over a year). In fact, Kevin insists that the OCG ruling should be the same. Doesn't mean that the games don't affect each other.
Digital Jedi said:
Secondly, I highly doubt that we were introuduced to a new Game Term without the inclusion of it in the rulings.
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Last Turn. Wait, that was before site updates. Well, what about Base Attack? That change came about the time that Fusilier Dragon was released (before, even).

Hm... how long was Theinen the Great Sphinx out before they gave the rulings for effects triggered from within the deck? Actually, have they told us exactly how to proceed? After all, the deck is indeterminate, so can you search whether or not you are sure that the card is in your deck? If you search, and discover that it's not there, do you get a penalty for trying to resolve an effect which never triggered?

And like it or not, swapping is a "new" mechanic, regardless of whether you send cards to the graveyard.

Remember also that this card has been out in Japan for a LONG time, and that it's probably not at the top of the "Needs ruling review" list at Konami.
Digital Jedi said:
Remember, send is a generic term.
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This assumes that "sending" is not really a game function, but just the name of something that happens.
masterwoo0 said:
How did we know that Sangan was destroyed? Because when it went to the Graveyard it went face-up as an individual card, in this case, so we can say that "here is a card that activates in the Graveyard."
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Morphing Jar #2 + 3 Archfiend of Gilfers going through the picking up. They're all sent to the graveyard at the same time as a ton of other cards, but the Gilfers will still trigger.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Similarly, "sent" is never an exclusive term. Cards that are Tributed are sent to the graveyard, cards that are destroyed are sent to the graveyard, cards that are discarded are sent to the graveyard, cards that are removed from play and returned to the graveyard are sent to the graveyard. If it's in the graveyard it had to be sent there. There's nothing specially terminological about "sent." It's just a word that means a card was "caused to go" from one place to another.
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The most you can say about that is "so far". SO FAR as you know, there has never been a card that has ended up in the graveyard without being sent there.

And exclusive is the wrong word to use. You can tribute a monster and have it not hit the graveyard.
squid said:
But unless Konami defines 'sent' as a specific term separate from 'swap' then my gut feeling is it has a bit of BKSS to it.
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Konami rarely outlines mechanics for the players. That doesn't mean that they haven't defined the mechanic, so we must look to the rulings for these rules.


Off-topic: If one of these Effect Monsters is removed from play (by "Soul Release" for example) and then returned to the Graveyard with "Miracle Dig", the negation condition was lost and the effects will now be active.

More off-topic: Big Wave Small Wave. Small wave = Konami. Amazing the randomness of card searching.
 
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