N
Newz
Guest
My friend posted that at a different site, would that work?
ancient_duelist
Gold Member
Sorry, I missed the early part of the thread. My bad.masterwoo0 said:
I disagree with this. I think the way Exiled Force is written precludes tributing another card at all.
And that's not what Exiled Force does, so I don't see how you could justify using Soul Exchange to do this.
Exactly. It does not mean tribute a card just to get it off the field.
John Danker
Administrator
So am I to understand that someone has already posed these questions to the judge's list? I see a great many valid points here and this is an excellent discussion. I think we're at the point though where we need some official answers, any other speculation is just that at this point.
Thats not really what were saying. And it's really just speculation at this point. Soul Exchange redirects the very next thing you try to go and tribute (optional of course). But until it's clarified we don't know what it's going to do when you go to tribute Exiled Force.ancient_duelist said:
ancient_duelist
Gold Member
I know there are some strange rulings in this game, but I just can't believe this would ever be ruled this way. (I'll keep my recipe for Fricasse Crow handy just in case I need it).Digital Jedi said:
I would say that because Soul Exchange can not be used to switch the tribute for Exiled Force, the effect of Soul Exchange is still alive for that turn. I would go farther on the limb and say there is nothing in Soul Exchange's effect that says it has to be used for the "next" tribute. It says for "a" tribute. I think it stays active for the present turn until it is used.
I think this is it, obviously.
Well this is quoted elswher in this thread but to reiterate:ancient_duelist said:
Question 1. Responding to an Attack
I have looked through the online FAQ and not found the answer to my question.
Players have suggested that it is possible to have "multiple chains" from a single attack.
(For both situations, Jack has 1 face-up attack position Gemini Elf and 2 face-down spell/trap cards. Daniel has 1 face-up Giant Rat and 2 face-down spell/trap cards.)
For Example:
Jack declares an attack with Gemini Elf. Daniel activates his face-down Enchanted Javelin. Jack activates his face-down Seven Tools of the Bandit, stopping Enchanted Javelin. Daniel declares he is going to activate his face-down Mirror Force in a separate chain.
To make the situation clearer, Daniel could NOT have chained Mirror Force, because Seven Tools has a higher Spell Speed. Is this legal?
Question 2. Soul Exchange
There are no FAQ rulings for Soul Exchange. I am also assuming the effect is targetting. Is the monster tributed at activation or resolution?
Same situation as before, but in Main Phase 1. Assuming the monster is tributed at activation, Jack plays Soul Exchange, tributing Daniel's Giant Rat, then decides not to use it for a trbute, still forfeiting jis Battle Phase because the card activated successfully, but not having to use the tribute.
Thanks in advance for any answers you give to this questions.
Tobias
Answer:
First, everyone should read this:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3501#3501
Now:
1. It is not possible to activate "Mirror Force" in a seperate chain. Daniel would not have the proper timing. The last thing to resolve in the game state was the resolution of a Trap Card, not the declaration of an attack.
And he cannot chain it to "Seven Tools of the Bandit" because it does not have enough Spell Speed.
2. "Soul Exchange" targets.
The monster is not Tributed at activation.
The monster is not Tributed at resolution.
When "Soul Exchange" resolves it sets up a condition by which, during that turn, when the player that activated "Soul Exchange" would Tribute a monster, they can Tribute the targeted monster instead.
Your scenario would not be possible.
---------------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep
CurtisSchultz_Netrep@Hotmail.com
You don't get to choose. Kind of like Last Will.
Phew a lotta good ideas moving around here.
my 2 cents for Soul Exchange vs. Exiled would be that the effect of SE would linger as Exiled clearly says 'this card' - so you could not use Soul Exchange's target - the effect is active until you use it within a legal tribute scenario. As to whether you must use it for the first legal tribute scenario ...
With the question of Griggle, I don't think that SE changes control of the monster (it stays on the other side) so your opponent does not get the life point boost.
<goes back to cards, and counts number SE and Metamorphosis available>
my 2 cents for Soul Exchange vs. Exiled would be that the effect of SE would linger as Exiled clearly says 'this card' - so you could not use Soul Exchange's target - the effect is active until you use it within a legal tribute scenario. As to whether you must use it for the first legal tribute scenario ...
With the question of Griggle, I don't think that SE changes control of the monster (it stays on the other side) so your opponent does not get the life point boost.
<goes back to cards, and counts number SE and Metamorphosis available>
chaosruler
New Member
I think that Soul Exchange cannot be used with EF, because of how EF is written, and any other card that is tributed WILL NOT fulfill Exiled Force's cost. Now, if this were true, that would be a handy way to get around Exiled Force getting negated by The End of Anubis...okay, I'll shut up on that now..., anyway, Exiled Force specifically requires that you tribute it as the cost, and I see no way that any other card, unless you target your opponent's Exiled Force, that that could work. Okay, now I'm a little confused. If someone already posted something along these lines, sorry.
-chaosruler
-chaosruler
Maybe its just me, but does everyone understand that it's already fully accepted (and ruled) that Soul Exchange doesn't work with Exiled Force for its effect?
The real issue is what happens when Soul Exchange has already resolved this turn and you go to tribute Exiled? Does Exiled burn your usage of Soul Exchange for the turn? Does Soul Exchange redirect the tribute for no effect? Or does Soul Exchange completely ignore Exiled and let you use the effect for something else later in the turn.
I'm pretty sure it's not the last one simply becasue I think it was established that once Soul Exchange has resolved the very next time you go to tribute something it has to be the selected monster, or you don't get the effect.
Maybe it is just me. But I thought I might clarify further.
The real issue is what happens when Soul Exchange has already resolved this turn and you go to tribute Exiled? Does Exiled burn your usage of Soul Exchange for the turn? Does Soul Exchange redirect the tribute for no effect? Or does Soul Exchange completely ignore Exiled and let you use the effect for something else later in the turn.
I'm pretty sure it's not the last one simply becasue I think it was established that once Soul Exchange has resolved the very next time you go to tribute something it has to be the selected monster, or you don't get the effect.
Maybe it is just me. But I thought I might clarify further.
chaosruler
New Member
OH, oops. Anyway, Soul Exchange's effect is optional, so when you go to tribute Exiled, it gets tributed.
-chaosruler
-chaosruler
WHAT THE HEY!?
This is one of the SILLIEST debates I've ever seen here. Perhaps the silliest.
Soul Exchange lets you tribute after its resolution. Any time you want. You don't have to tribute the monster at all, even. And you can save it for a tribute. You don't need to tribute it for the FIRST tribute you get.
And sacrificing an opponent's monster for a self-sacrifice monster effect you control? Why are you even asking?
And for people who ABSOLUTELY need Upperdeck to decide everything for them, well, be glad Curtis was kind enough to give an answer.
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=5187
As for Last Will, the JERP says you can save it. And I agree. Ian's been wrong before.
この効果解決の時点で特殊召喚を行わなかった場合は、「遺言状」の効果は保留されます。
（保留した場合は【効果適用条件】処理へ）
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/puppiy/rule/spell/s1/Normal_C18.htm
This is one of the SILLIEST debates I've ever seen here. Perhaps the silliest.
Soul Exchange lets you tribute after its resolution. Any time you want. You don't have to tribute the monster at all, even. And you can save it for a tribute. You don't need to tribute it for the FIRST tribute you get.
And sacrificing an opponent's monster for a self-sacrifice monster effect you control? Why are you even asking?
And for people who ABSOLUTELY need Upperdeck to decide everything for them, well, be glad Curtis was kind enough to give an answer.
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=5187
As for Last Will, the JERP says you can save it. And I agree. Ian's been wrong before.
この効果解決の時点で特殊召喚を行わなかった場合は、「遺言状」の効果は保留されます。
（保留した場合は【効果適用条件】処理へ）
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/puppiy/rule/spell/s1/Normal_C18.htm
Because mechanically it should absolutely be possible.
I posed that question Rai because i wanted a specific answer, which is not UDE/Konami's usual pattern.
Realistically, the text of Exiled should be insignificant in regards to Soul Exchange. It is simply because Konami wants it that way, rather than it fitting in with core mechanics.
However, the ruling is what it is, at least its clear.
John Danker
Administrator
I get just a little tired of people assuming that the JERP is the end all of what is correct and what is not correct for rulings in this game. There have been many rulings that have been changed from the original Japanesse version because of input, discussion, players, and UDE employees from the U.S.
This game is still developing, obviously still changing, and even some of the oldest of card rulings are changing because of the influence of many around the world.
In some ways the game in the English version has evolved beyond the Japanesse version. Why? Because we aren't raised to accept what is given to us and we question what seems unreasonable or impractical. Another reason? We have a structured judging program unlike the Japanesse.
Are we always right? Of course not, and neither is the JERP. If it were there would be no need for any of us to question any of the rulings. I think we all know better than that.
This game is still developing, obviously still changing, and even some of the oldest of card rulings are changing because of the influence of many around the world.
In some ways the game in the English version has evolved beyond the Japanesse version. Why? Because we aren't raised to accept what is given to us and we question what seems unreasonable or impractical. Another reason? We have a structured judging program unlike the Japanesse.
Are we always right? Of course not, and neither is the JERP. If it were there would be no need for any of us to question any of the rulings. I think we all know better than that.
That is actually untrue.
They have had a structured Judging program for a couple of years now in Asia.
I know this because there was a certain VERY respectable and knowlegable Asian player on Realms who was telling us a looooong time before the Judges Borad was ever born.
John Danker
Administrator
novastar said:
You could very well be correct, that's not what my sources tell me however <shrug> I can't say I have first hand knowledge as I've not spent time there. Perhaps I've spoken prematurely and my sources aren't as reliable as I suspect....I'm sure I'll learn soon enough. I suppose too, that would depend on what one wishes to deem as "structured"
There is no evidence to support this or disprove this. Thats why this debate isn't silly.Raijinili said:
What nova said.
That message was quoted already on the first page of this thread and then again on page 3. No one was questioning the ruling. We were wondering about the ramifications of it.
Last Will's state is triggered by the next moster sent to the Graveyard as per the FAQ. The JERP is incorrect.
The JERP is different, but not necessarily wrong. It remains to be seen as to whether or not changes will be made to the JERP to fit the UDE FAQ, or whether the FAQ will be changed to reflect the JERP ruling.Digital Jedi said:
How they make these rulings on Last Will coincide could make a big impact on how we view Soul Exchange. At the moment, since about everyone here (though not exclusively) uses the UDE FAQ rulings in their judging, we should probably extrapolate from what the FAQ states about Last Will, for Soul Exchange. That is, the effect of tributing a monster must be the next available usage.
What I dont like is the idea that a monster whose tribute cost exclusively mentions itself (IE: Exiled Force) would use up the available effect of Soul Exchange. If we arent allowed to tribute another monster on our side of the field to trigger EF's effect, then why should it be legal to trigger an opponent's monster AT ALL because of Soul Exhange. If the tributing isnt legal, then why should the effect of Soul Exchange be used up?
My personal feeling is that the effect should wait for the next legal tributing action, whether it be for summoning, Cannon Soldier, or any other type effect that does not specifically call for a single monster to be tributed.
This would be the same problem, I assume, if Soul Exchange had resolved successfully and the controlling player next played Level Up! on their level monster for the next # up?
The ruling that Raijinili provided still kind of slips past the point, since the question asked to Curtis still was concerned more with the effect of Exiled Force, than with the simple tribute aspects of Soul Exchange.
....but you know...
silly can be good! I dont have a headache when Im silly.(tipsy silly, maybe. But that headache is a few hours later)
John Danker
Administrator
I posed the question about Soul Exchange needing to be used for the first tribute or weather it's like Last Will and it's effect needs to be used at the first possible opp. yesterday. I also asked about the situation where Soul Exchange had been activated and Exiled Force was summoned and it's effect activated (weather the effect of Soul Exchange would by-pass Exiled Force and still be available)
We'll see if we get an answer.
We'll see if we get an answer.