N
Newz
Guest
My friend posted that at a different site, would that work?
I don't know about that. It makes more sense to me that if a game state is waiting to be triggered, then it will trigger at the first available opportunity.novastar said:
Dillie-O
Council of Heroes
Last Will
Normal Spell
You can only use this card's effect once, and only during this turn. When a monster on your side of the field is sent to your Graveyard, you can Special Summon 1 monster with an ATK of 1500 points or less from your Deck. Then shuffle your Deck.
Well, Last Will uses the operative word "can" when stating that you can Special Summon a 1500 or less attacker to the field. From what we've seen with other cards, this makes the effect optional, and that leaves the door open to possibilities. Granted you can only use its effect once per turn, but its effect is the special summoning. The activation requirement for that effect is that a monster is sent from your side of the field to the graveyard. This activation trigger could happen multiple times, but not resolve until the duelist chooses too.
Soul Exchange
Normal Spell
Select 1 monster on your opponent's side of the field. When you offer your monster as a Tribute, offer the selected monster in place of 1 of your monsters. During this turn, you cannot conduct your Battle Phase.
Soul Exchange seems a little more restrictive to me. I don't see any optional text in here to indicate that the monster Exchange is optional.
Normal Spell
You can only use this card's effect once, and only during this turn. When a monster on your side of the field is sent to your Graveyard, you can Special Summon 1 monster with an ATK of 1500 points or less from your Deck. Then shuffle your Deck.
Well, Last Will uses the operative word "can" when stating that you can Special Summon a 1500 or less attacker to the field. From what we've seen with other cards, this makes the effect optional, and that leaves the door open to possibilities. Granted you can only use its effect once per turn, but its effect is the special summoning. The activation requirement for that effect is that a monster is sent from your side of the field to the graveyard. This activation trigger could happen multiple times, but not resolve until the duelist chooses too.
Soul Exchange
Normal Spell
Select 1 monster on your opponent's side of the field. When you offer your monster as a Tribute, offer the selected monster in place of 1 of your monsters. During this turn, you cannot conduct your Battle Phase.
Soul Exchange seems a little more restrictive to me. I don't see any optional text in here to indicate that the monster Exchange is optional.
However, the optional ability of Last Will, or even Soul Exchange, wouldn't necessarily give the player full descretion to use the state whenever he wanted. When the state lingers around the field and is triggered by the proper event, the player could have the "option" to use it...or not use it. That doesn't mean he'd get to use it later in the turn if the first event was bypassed.Dillie-O said:
Based on the general feel of Yu-Gi-Oh!'s game structure thus far, this would seem more likely.
John Danker
Administrator
The really sad part is that Soul Exchange and Last Will are some of the oldest cards in the game....and we still aren't certain how their mechanics work <sigh>
Dillie-O said:
thanks for pointing that out, Dillie-O. now lets all imagine if the 'can' in Last Will will be updated to mean that a monster sent to the Grave via tributing for an effect or summoning will mean the effect of Last Will has missed its timing, as an optional effect. therefore making the card entirely void of meaning...
I need a drink.
Pepto Bismol, anyone?
BTW: I know that's not true, but "what if.." just keeps popping into my head. Hold me, John! *cries quietly onto Danker's shoulder*
And I get tired of people who don't take the JERP seriously. The TCG has had more rulings changed than the JERP. Quite an impressive feat, considering that the JERP contains much more in rulings content than UDE ever released.
Amazing. Considering that it was posted between the time I posted and the time the person before me posted. CoG gets time travel privileges now?
Check the sources before assuming that I don't read.
Soul Exchange's effect basically says that you can sacrifice as if that monster is on your field. Or that's what it's supposed to say. Even if another Exiled Force is on your field, you can't activate one and sac the other (although I'd be hard-pressed to find a case where that would matter).
Not true:
Cheese.
I don't think this is strong as evidence. It may be like the original Nephthys ruling, trying too hard to clarify one ruling and accidentally giving another.Ruling said:
Well, it's a matter of interpretation. I agree with the Soul Exchange interpretation, but you have to factor in the tribute effect as well...namely Exiled Force.
I interpret it as saying that if an effect has a requirement to sacrifice a monster you control, sacrifice the opponent's instead. Exiled Force not only requires that, but it requires a monster you control named "Exiled Force" to be tributed. That is mechanically how things should work. It's not a big deal, if they want it that way, so be it.
lol, come on... i was refering to not knowing who these cards work after several years of them being released.
It is truely sad.
Well, I'll admit I was sleepy when I read this. But can you really say you were presenting anything new with this?Raijinili said:
Which is almost identical to:
Other than the extra Exiled you can see why I thought they were the same letter.
You know a little Japanese, if I understand. "Ko no kaado (card)" is the usual text. It doesn't say to tribute a card that has the same name.
Well, novastar wanted to know.
Also:
http://www.cogonline.net/showpost.php?p=66995&postcount=45
That is REALLY weak evidence that you would have to use it as soon as possible.
chaosruler
New Member
and if you read the post, it says that the player MAY tribute, not HAS TO tribute. Also, Rai, i'm agreeing with you 
-chaosruler
-chaosruler
chaosruler
New Member
I was referring to the Judge's List post that DJ re-posted, the one printed in red a page or three back.
-chaosruler
-chaosruler
It's not so much what the card text is actually saying, but the underlying mechanics behind it and templating, and how Soul Exchange tricks or circumvents that mechanic.
The term "this card" in general should be synonymous with the "card name"
So "Tribute this face-up card" from a mechanical point of view should be the same as "Tribute Exiled Force" and it should be implied that it is that specific Exiled Force object that must be tributed.
Actually, funny thing is YGO card text is written more cryptically (mechanically) than other games i've seen, such as Vs., which in general has very "soft" language in their card text and hard mechanics in the CRD.
That is probably part of the reason it can be difficult for people to understand the text, when Konami doesn't outline the mechanics properly.
Anyway, it is a moot arguement as the ruling clearly shows that it cannot be done, i just wanted to make my point clear.
Weak evidence? Most of the rulings we extrapolate are from weak evidence.
But in this case ,the evidence is weaker that it doesn't trigger the first time you go to tribute something that turn.
Everyone keeps pointing out Soul Exchange's optional ability (okay, not everybody. just chaosruler.) but this is no way means you have free range to trigger the game state any old time you want to. It more likely means that it's triggered by the next even it can replace, and then you choose (optional) whether you want to use it or not.
Really, I know Nova stated that this differed because it was a replacement effect. But I don't see any differnece in the basic templating between this and Last Will.
But in this case ,the evidence is weaker that it doesn't trigger the first time you go to tribute something that turn.
Everyone keeps pointing out Soul Exchange's optional ability (okay, not everybody. just chaosruler.
) but this is no way means you have free range to trigger the game state any old time you want to. It more likely means that it's triggered by the next even it can replace, and then you choose (optional) whether you want to use it or not.Really, I know Nova stated that this differed because it was a replacement effect. But I don't see any differnece in the basic templating between this and Last Will.
When "Soul Exchange" resolves it sets up a condition by which, during that turn, when the player that activated "Soul Exchange" would Tribute a monster, they can Tribute the targeted monster instead.
This is weak evidence, because it states NOTHING about using it on the next tribute. That's how this is weak. It's irrelevent. Is that not a weakness?
If I remember correctly, the only evidence of Last Will triggering the very next time is from a ruling that didn't specifically address the issue (instead meant to say, "You don't select a monster as a target when you activate or resolve 'Last Will'.") and Ian.
The UDE ruling is weak because precedence has shown that rulings meant to say one thing may give the wrong impression on another thing. As I referred to before, the original Nephthys ruling, which implied that Divine Wrath could destroy monsters in the graveyard.
Ian as a source is weak because he is not a Netrep, nor is he designated to answer rulings questions on the Judge List. Curtis has also told me that he made the English Level 1 test, which was riddled with errors, most notably (to me) that Spell/Trap cards leave the field after activation.
On the other hand, we have a JERP ruling.
Unless you have precedence beside Last Will, I have already addressed the rulings which you extrapolated from.Everyone keeps pointing out Soul Exchange's optional ability (okay, not everybody. just chaosruler.
psst... there are two rulings that say it's the next time, not just one...
- You don't select a monster as a target when you activate or resolve "Last Will". "Last Will" creates a state whereby, the next time during that turn when your monster is sent from your side of the field to your Graveyard, you may Special Summon 1 monster from your Deck using "Last Will's" state. "Last Will's" state then ends.
- These states accumulate, so if you activate 2 "Last Wills", then the next time during that turn when your monster is sent from your side of the field to your Graveyard, you may Special Summon 2 monsters from your Deck, and the "Last Wills'" states then end.
I belive I said Last Will was a triggered state that triggers the very next time. Was that in question?
Soul Exchange reads like a triggered state. No one has really posted any evidence to the contrary that it doesn't trigger like Last Will's state. (The very next time)
The evidence lies in the basic structure of the game. I've said before, based on the feel of the game so far, this would be the more likely of the scenarios. I wasn't hinging everything an a single letter. But I see nothing from the letter to contradict that.