Face-Down Monster cards

A

Azatoth

New Member
A debate started here:

http://www.igforums.com/showthread.php?p=53806

It's partly about me not understanding why face-down monster cards do have effects at all, as they should be without Type, Attribute and effect in my opinion.

So how can you tribute a face-down Kaibaman or The Creator Incarnate for a BEWD or Creator? Why can you send a face-down Beast-Type monster to the graveyard for Manticore of Darkness' effect, as they should not have a type at all (as far as I know and believe).

So can anyone explain why you should be able to use The Creator Incarnate's effect while face-down to tribute him and summon The Creator from your hand in particular, and how face-down monster cards are treated regarding Type, Attribute, Level and Effect in general?

Thanks.
 
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So where's the problem to offer a face-down monster due to its own effect???
You KNEW that it had such an effect when you offered it!
And your opponent can easily checkt this when it arrives in the Grave, so he can just tell you 'oh, it was legal that you offered your monster'...
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The problem? No monster has an ignition effect while face-down.

StRiKe_NiNjA said:
And I believe you can Divine Wrath the effect of Kaibaman, because you are in attempt tp Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon.

I mean like you can't just Special Summon some monster, only effects can do that.
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I already stated my theory. Kaibaman makes it as if Blue-Eyes White Dragon had the effect, "You can Special Summon this card from your hand by sacrificing a Kaibaman from your field", similar to The Fiend Megacyber.
 
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GMonkey said:
After thinking about what I wrote, I reconsidered my response to the face down Kaibaman, etc. I would assume you would flip summon them first to indicate to your opponent what the cards effect is.
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You can simply tribute Kaibaman while it's face-down, place it face-up in the graveyard, and state you are going to use the effect to Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon.
 
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This is going to be my final statement on this topic, until then my friends, I'm going to stand on this answer till the official answer comes from the Judge's List if that's what it's called. This thread has finally gotten old and is getting on my last nerve.

You, as the controller, have control of all your effects. You know what's face-up and face-down on your side of the field and have control over effects.

Red-Eyes B. Chick
Send this face-up card on your side of the field to the Graveyard to Special Summon 1 "Red-Eyes B. Dragon" from your hand.

This effect when activated, can be chained to by Divine Wrath.

The Creator Incarnate
Tribute this card to Special Summon 1 "The Creator" from your hand.

Rulings states, you can tribute this card while it is face-down to Special Summon "The Creator" from your hand, but that's the only difference. You still must state you are tributing The Creator Incarnate for it's effect in attempt to Special Summon "The Creator" which here is still a chainable event, so Divine Wrath can be chained to this effect.

You can tribute face-down cards like that of The Creator Incarnate because you have control of effects that tributes even while face-down. You have control of effects such as that.

As most of you state, a face-down monster has no effect, no attribute, no type, etc. while face-down. But as I've said, you as in the controller have control of all effects. This similar to the X-Head Cannon, Y-Dragon Head, and Z-Metal Tank pieces. You can still remove these cards from play even while face-down on the field. This is what The Creator Incarnate and the X, Y, and Z pieces have in common.

The only difference here is that when you remove along together the X-Head Cannon, Y-Dragon Head, and/or Z-Metal Tank pieces, is that your not "activating" an effect here, this also goes for The Fiend Megacyber. You just perform the Special Summon instantaenously.

For The Creator Incarnate, "Tribute this card to Special Summon 1 "The Creator" from your hand." is activating an effect here, compare that to XYZ pieces and The Fiend Megacyber, these effects never activate and is not chainable to.

The Creator Incarnate, Kaibaman, Paladin of White Dragon, etc. are chainable events.

Just for fun, lets look at Mystik Wok:

Mystik Wok
Offer 1 monster on your side of the field as a Tribute. Select the ATK or DEF of the Tributed monster, and increase your Life Points by the same amount.

Lets follow this template here

"Offer 1(or more) monster(s) on your side of the field as a Tribute(Cost), to do [this_effect]"

Following that, we know how Mystik Wok works, but you won't get the increased Life Points till it has resolved.

Now try comparing that to Kaibaman...
 
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The huge problem with your solution is that Mystik Wok, DDVD, any other kind of effect you can think of, are OUTSIDE effects. Ignitions can't activate while face-down.

There, I compared it to Kaibaman.

If you feel weaker in your resolve at any point, know that Kevin Tewart and the JERP are with you. Had an argument with him about it, too. Says that I may get an answer from Konami in December. Of next year. Might.

============

In other news, I have officially become paranoid. I have found the three characters that I believe make the "rule-breaking effect": る事で.

So far, I have found the following with that phrase in the text:
The Dark - Hex-Sealed Fusion
The Light - Hex-Sealed Fusion
The Earth - Hex-Sealed Fusion
Hand of Nephthys
Paladin of White Dragon
Dark Sage
The Creator Incarnate
Kaibaman

I realize this post will severely lower my credibility, especially since PoWD is already listed as an Ignition, but you just watch.
 
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Maybe the Mystik Wok example wasn't all that great, but that's the best this primitive brain of mine could think of.... matter fact... I don't even know why I used that example. haha

I'm just gonna kick back n wait for it...
 
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Don't the Divine Wrath rulings indicate that in order to activate Divine Wrath it has to be chained immediatly to an effect preceeding it on the chain?

The last thing to happen when you tribute Kaibaman face-up or face-down for it's effect is the Summoning of Blue-Eyes White Dragon. Red-Eyes B. Chick can be chained to with Divine Wrath, not because it was sent to the Graveyard face-up, but because it was already in the Graveyard (cost having been payed) and it's effect is on the field trying to resolve. You chain to the effect, not the payment.

I don't think this effect can be continuous. Maybe it's not ignition, but definitley not continuous. For the simple reason that the Special Summon is an effect and a chainable event. Double Coston and it's compatriots are continuous because they DO NOT conclude with a chainable event. They conclude with a Tribute Summon. So what could you possibly chain Divine Wrath to?

The original Japanese text not withstanding, it's difficult to literally translate a foreign language and carry with it all the meaning that it had in its original language. Hence the phrase "lost in translation." I suspect that with a language a subtle as Japanese it's possible that the original language carried with it more insinuation, i.e. "this card is face-up." Statue of the Wicked can only get it's effect if desroyed face-down. It's never activated (fliped face-up) and can't ever be truly activated. I see, then, the possibility, at least, for a face-down effect monster. A coat is being payed for a effect that isn't visible on payment but clearly visiible on resolution.
 
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I don't think this effect can be continuous. Maybe it's not ignition, but definitley not continuous. For the simple reason that the Special Summon is an effect and a chainable event. Double Coston and it's compatriots are continuous because they DO NOT conclude with a chainable event. They conclude with a Tribute Summon. So what could you possibly chain Divine Wrath to?
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Special Summons from Hand or Deck are not always chainable. Take Dark Necrofear and gang for instance.

I see the effects of Kaibaman and The Creator Incarnate as similar in nature. They provide a special cost Special Summon for their respective monsters. Which is done as a none chainable event or cost if you will.

Any effect that does not use the chain, is continuous in nature.
 
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True, but there is a key difference.

You tribute Kaibaman as a cost to "activate" the effect, then Divine Wrath is chained here.

As for Dark Necrofear, you remove 3 Fiend type from your graveyard in order to Special Summon Dark Necrofear itself, which of course is not activating an effect.
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
True, but there is a key difference.

You tribute Kaibaman as a cost to "activate" the effect, then Divine Wrath is chained here.

As for Dark Necrofear, you remove 3 Fiend type from your graveyard in order to Special Summon Dark Necrofear itself, which of course is not activating an effect.
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What is the difference between saying "Tribute this monster" and "Remove 3 Fiend-Type monsters"?

They are both costs.

Lets not start assuming here that you can chain Divine Wrath. There is not enough evidence to support that.
 
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True, but in the case of Dark Necrofear you run into the same problem. There is no effect to chain to. The removal of the Fiends from the Graveyard can't be chained to, thats the cost. The Special Summon of Necrofear herself can't be chained to obvously because there is no effect going off here. But Kaibaman is an effect going off on the field.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
True, but in the case of Dark Necrofear you run into the same problem. There is no effect to chain to. The removal of the Fiends from the Graveyard can't be chained to, thats the cost. The Special Summon of Necrofear herself can't be chained to obvously because there is no effect going off here. But Kaibaman is an effect going off on the field.
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It's not about "where" the effect is coming from, Kuriboh's effect occurs in the Hand and it is chainable. It has to do this type Special Summoning from Hand specifically.

- Strike Ninja says "Remove 2 DARK monsters from play" to remove itself
- Dark Necrofear says "Remove 3 Fiend-Type monsters from play" to Special Summon itself

So how do you know that Dark Necrofear's effect doesn't activate? because the rulings tell you right? What's the difference? One is chainable, the other is not. They both have similar costs.

I believe this is a new type of mechanic or effect, that actually works similar in nature to a cost Special Summon from Hand such as Dark Necrofear.

The cost is a "Tribute" plainly, and is checked as the card is being tributed, so it can be done while face-down.

There is absolutely no chaining going on here.
 
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novastar said:
It's not about "where" the effect is coming from, Kuriboh's effect occurs in the Hand and it is chainable. It has to do this type Special Summoning from Hand specifically.

- Strike Ninja says "Remove 2 DARK monsters from play" to remove itself
- Dark Necrofear says "Remove 3 Fiend-Type monsters from play" to Special Summon itself

So how do you know that Dark Necrofear's effect doesn't activate? because the rulings tell you right? What's the difference? One is chainable, the other is not. They are both costs.

I believe this is a new type of mechanic or effect, that actually works similar in nature to a cost Special Summon from Hand such as Dark Necrofear.

The cost is a "Tribute" plainly, and is checked as the card is being tributed, so it can be done while face-down.

There is absolutely no chaining going on here.
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If that's the case, then can Red-Eyes B. Chick not be sent to the Graveyard face-down?
 
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The removal of 3 fiends from play as a "cost" is not part of Dark Necrofear's "effect", it's the "cost"

Kaibaman is different, it's an "effect" that allows you to "tribute" Kaibaman as the "cost", I believe it's chainable too.
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
The removal of 3 fiends from play as a "cost" is not part of Dark Necrofear's "effect", it's the "cost"

Kaibaman is different, it's an "effect" that allows you to "tribute" Kaibaman as the "cost", I believe it's chainable too.
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You are only confusing yourself here.

Both the Tribute and removal are cost, and the Special Summon is the effect. All Special Summons are done "by effect" hence why they are called Special Summons.
 
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Lava Golem is to Dark Necrofear.

The "costs" these monsters involve are not part of their "effects" that's why these event are unchainable.

Kaibaman is different, it's an "effect" that allows you to "tribute" Kaibaman as the "cost", I believe it's chainable too.
 
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Think I'll ask the girl in my workplace for a Japanese translation of something a bit "stronger" than "Because Konami say so."...
This whole thing of paying the cost for an effect before the source of the effect becomes public knowledge just seems wrong to me.
 
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