Face-Down Monster cards

A

Azatoth

New Member
A debate started here:

http://www.igforums.com/showthread.php?p=53806

It's partly about me not understanding why face-down monster cards do have effects at all, as they should be without Type, Attribute and effect in my opinion.

So how can you tribute a face-down Kaibaman or The Creator Incarnate for a BEWD or Creator? Why can you send a face-down Beast-Type monster to the graveyard for Manticore of Darkness' effect, as they should not have a type at all (as far as I know and believe).

So can anyone explain why you should be able to use The Creator Incarnate's effect while face-down to tribute him and summon The Creator from your hand in particular, and how face-down monster cards are treated regarding Type, Attribute, Level and Effect in general?

Thanks.
 
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novastar said:
Red-Eyes B. Chick specifically states: " Send this face-up card on your side of the field"

I'm not to thrilled about this either, but i am fairly certain that Kaibaman is not chainble.

What i don't like the idea of a face-down providing an effect.

Think of it in relation to Lava Golem, the Tribute for Kaibaman is done in the same fashion.
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Hmmm . . . sleepy. Forgot about that small little detail.

Well there's still Statue of the Wicked to fall back on for a example of a face-down effect. I always assumed it got it's effect because once it hit the Graveyard it was suddenly public knowledge. Hmmm . . . still sleepy.
 
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daivahataka said:
Think I'll ask the girl in my workplace for a Japanese translation of something a bit "stronger" than "Because Konami say so."...
This whole thing of paying the cost for an effect before the source of the effect becomes public knowledge just seems wrong to me.
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It seems wrong to me as well. But the ruling for the creator incarnate specifically states that it can be done.

I'm not trilled either believe me.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Hmmm . . . sleepy. Forgot about that small little detail.

Well there's still Statue of the Wicked to fall back on for a example of a face-down effect. I always assumed it got it's effect because once it hit the Graveyard it was suddenly public knowledge. Hmmm . . . still sleepy.
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"When this face-down card is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard,"

It is a Graveyard Trigger Effect, so it activates after it enters the Graveyard. Different scenario all together.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Hmmm . . . sleepy. Forgot about that small little detail.

Well there's still Statue of the Wicked to fall back on for a example of a face-down effect. I always assumed it got it's effect because once it hit the Graveyard it was suddenly public knowledge. Hmmm . . . still sleepy.
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But the key point with this is that its effect activates in the graveyard, when the source is now public knowledge.

novastar said:
It seems wrong to me as well. But the ruling for the creator incarnate specifically states that it can be done.

I'm not trilled either believe me.
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I'm not disputing that the rulings say it's allowed, just that I don't think it should be the case with our current rules.
 
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@ the guy with the drug-addicted big-headed lemming in signature (just kidding, it's really cute): try "because Konami said so although they don't actually have an idea of what they're saying", so we don't have to learn a completely new phrase.

@ strike_ninja: sorry for your fried brain ;) I'm gonna search for a new one on ebay, if you want, don't want to be blamed for being the one who opened the thread that lobotomized you...

who does actually make the rules listed in the Netrepâ„¢ Crad Registry? I mean, if this guy/these guys were as uncertain as we are when writing this crap about the Creator Incarnate...:eek:...a world collapses...apocalypse...no really, obviously there are some contradictions in the rules published...

When it's written on a card "tribute this face-up card", it's clear what to do, and statue of the wicked clearly says "face-down card", plus it's a graveyard effect, so no problems either.

But already Big Shield Small ATK Gardner makes one ask "why does he have an effect while face-down". At least I ask myself "why does he have an effect while face-down", and probably some others also ask themselves "why does he have an effect while face-down"...;)

And here we are at the core of the whole problem: we need a clarification of the effects of such face-down monsters as mentioned here that have a text that doesn't explicitly state "face-up" or "face-down". Sure everybody knows that, don't hit me, I just realised that this has become a very broad discussion about a huge variety of cards, card effects, situations and game mechanics, so I wanted to point out what most of them have in common. And that is the bold text question.

Let's see what the judges say. Hopefully it doesn't get worse...
 
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chaosruler said:
Nope, cuz Red Eyes B. Chick sez "send this face-up card to the graveyard"

-chaosruler
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Actualy, he's quoting the Dvine Wrath rulings. You can in fact chain to the effect of Red-Eyes B. Chick. It's just the rulings mistakenly call REBC a tributing effect, but you can chain to it non the less.
 
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Yeah...while REBC is "send this face-up card to the graveyard", Kaibaman is "Tribute this card to Special Summon 1 "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" from your hand." I got a headache, good night (it's 10 PM here).
 
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Digital Jedi - sorry, I got confused

Azatoth - my problem with that though is that Kaibaman seems like an Ignition effect to me, so how can you activate an Ignition effect while it is face-down

-chaosruler
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
Effects that tributes on the field always uses the chain system, unless the effect itself is an actual Continous Effect like Mass Driver, except Ectoplasmer I think.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Exiled Force", "Red-Eyes B. Chick", or "Paladin of White Dragon" is Tributed for its own effect.

With that ruling in mind, I can't dispute against that.
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Niether Ectoplasmer or Mass Driver have a Continuous Effect, the first is a Trigger the latter is a manually Activated Effect.

No, not all effects that require a Tribute from the Field use the chain. Lava Golem having you Tribute 2 monsters to Special Summon itself is a perfect example of this.
 
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chaosruler said:
Digital Jedi - sorry, I got confused

Azatoth - my problem with that though is that Kaibaman seems like an Ignition effect to me, so how can you activate an Ignition effect while it is face-down

-chaosruler
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This is my opinion too, I just wanted to point out the differences between these 2 cards.

I was referring to the following:

Actualy, he's quoting the Dvine Wrath rulings. You can in fact chain to the effect of Red-Eyes B. Chick. It's just the rulings mistakenly call REBC a tributing effect, but you can chain to it non the less.
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It is just about the difference between REBC's sending and Kaibaman's tributing.
 
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It is just about the difference between REBC's sending and Kaibaman's tributing.
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No, as "Sending" and "Tributing" are just 2 different ways of a card going to a different location. Two different mechanics.

The main problem, as i seems to me, is that although it may not appear so these are 2 very different effects.

One is actually and activated Ignition Effect (Red-Eyes) and the other simply allows you to declare a Special Summon of Blue Eyes White Dragon from Hand, by Tributing it.
 
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Ectoplasma has a continuous effect.

And Big Shield Gardna has an effect face-down because it said so.

Oh, by the way, I referred to "Rule-Effect" before. That means that it doesn't even have to be face-up on the field to have an effect, unlike, say, Spirit Reaper's continuous effect. Cards under this JERP classification include Elemental Master Doriard, Kaiser Sea Horse, and Moisture Alien (forget its UDE name at the moment).
 
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novastar said:
No, as "Sending" and "Tributing" are just 2 different ways of a card going to a different location. Two different mechanics.

The main problem, as i seems to me, is that although it may not appear so these are 2 very different effects.

One is actually and activated Ignition Effect (Red-Eyes) and the other simply allows you to declare a Special Summon of Blue Eyes White Dragon from Hand, by Tributing it.
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That is what I said, or at least wanted to do ;) Ok, maybe it was something too obvious and simple for the guys visiting this board (btw are there also girls visiting this board?), but I felt like some people treated REBC and Kaibaman as the same. Why the **** do people argue with my point of view when I agree to them, makes not too much sense ;) :D :p

Btw, have headache, can't sleep. :(
 
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novastar said:
Niether Ectoplasmer or Mass Driver have a Continuous Effect, the first is a Trigger the latter is a manually Activated Effect.

No, not all effects that require a Tribute from the Field use the chain. Lava Golem having you Tribute 2 monsters to Special Summon itself is a perfect example of this.
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Whoops, I forgot to refer to the monsters listed in the rulings below that, sorry if I may have given people the wrong idea.

For Lava Golem, you tribute for a cost.

For Kaibaman, you tribute for an effect.
 
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