Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast

J

Jack-Wyler

New Member
Hello all ,

I would like to know if Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast's original attack strengh was 1400 or 2800 when it is summoned without tribute .
Because my oppenent equipped it with Megamorph and said that its attack become 5600 because its original attack strengh was 2800 but however it is written on the card that THE ORIGINAL ATTACK would become halved when it is summoned without tribute

Can you help me ?

p.s: excuse my english , I am a French guy
 
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Ok, let's let the debate begin. Maybe Curtis was indeed wrong:

From the Mailing list based on the TLM Preview Rulings:

King of the Skull Servants "“ Effect Monster Card

[The original ATK of this card becomes the number of "King of the Skull Servants" and "Skull Servant" cards in your Graveyard x 1000 points. When this card is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, remove from play 1 other "King of the Skull Servants" or "Skull Servant" card in your Graveyard to Special Summon this card.]

The original ATK of "King of the Skull Servants" is determined by its effect. This is further doubled/halved by "Megamorph" and other effects that are based off of original ATK. If the number of "Skull Servant" and "King of the Skull Servants" cards in your Graveyard changes, re-calculate the original ATK of "King of the Skull Servants", then re-apply the effect of "Megamorph".

Wait a moment... re-read that last statement. We all did? Good. The wording on the card is the EXACT same thing as what is on Fusilier. What this means is that the effect of Fusilier and King of Skull Servants "changes" what the "printed" ATK/DEF is. So Megamorph would NOT set the base ATK/DEF to 0 with KoSS and would NOT reset the base on a normal summoned Fusilier to 2800 as a base (1400 or 5600) otherwise leaving it as a 1400 base (700 or 2800 after equipped).

Time to recheck card wordings.
 
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Actually the ? would be treated as 0.

I'm reading through other rulings with cards that feature the words "Original ATK" and all of them say that Megamorph overrides it. So I would have to say that the ruling we were just given would be wrong. Time to e-mail the list.

And a PS. Winged Kuriboh gets his effect even if he's an equip card. So that does, that Guardian does, but the Phoenix doesn't. This makes no sense.
 
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Ok... I RE-reread things. There are only 2 monsters that state what the "Original ATK" is set to: Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast and Behemoth, the King of all Animals. All the other cards just said that the ATK of that card becomes blah blah blah... If King of Skull Servants is a 3rd card of its kind, then the statement that Megamorph looks at what these effects reset the "Original ATK" (aka re-writing what is printed on the card) rather than simply what is printed on the card.
 
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Just a reminder, there were several mistakes in the rulings we got for the Flaming Eternity sneak preview.
like this one:
http://www.cogonline.net/threads.7040

So i'd suspect these rulings not to be set in stone, and just how they are going to be ruled for this weekend.

Yes the card text looks different on those 3 monsters, but i remember Kevin posting a big article on how we shouldn't be analyzing card text.

Then again, a card with a ? should be able to change its original attack as it doesn't have one, but fusilier and behemoth do have printed attack values.


 
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It's not quite as simple as that going by the ruling for King of Skull Servants. Fusilier Dragon also talks about resetting the Original ATK (the first card that I could find that has that effect). Remember the rules were made to be broken (which is why as judges we have so many headaches).
 
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densetsu_x said:
Actually the ? would be treated as 0.

I'm reading through other rulings with cards that feature the words "Original ATK" and all of them say that Megamorph overrides it. So I would have to say that the ruling we were just given would be wrong. Time to e-mail the list.

And a PS. Winged Kuriboh gets his effect even if he's an equip card. So that does, that Guardian does, but the Phoenix doesn't. This makes no sense.
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Actually a "?" only treated as 0 when performing calculations or ATK checks by effects, under any other circumstance is considered an unknown.

It is an interesting question. The wording on Fusilier seems to put it is line with the King of the Skull Servants, but we all know how reliable the English text can be...
 
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The wording is the real issue for me.

There would be no functional difference between stating:

"the original ATK/DEF if this card is halved"

and

"the original ATK/DEF of this card become halved"

The "become" wording might indicate and actual change of card text in this case.

Me personally... i think its sloppy wording.
 
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netwt said:
Megamorph only refers to the original printed ATK on the card. Nothing more to say about it. So this ones resets the effect of the Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast and gives him 5600 ATK. Is just that simple. And why is this possible, because Megamorph always recalculates the ATK.
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It would be easy to assume that something like this is cut and dry. I can assure you though that we've been through numerous such cases in this forum where we've dug through numerous rulings to find rulings that should agree with each other that insted countradict one another. I can tell you that there are about a half dozen such cases that were taken to Konami last week by Kevin Tewart in an effort to try to get clarification.

We often get extremely in depth in this forum, it's actually something we take great pride in and devote a great deal of time to. Often times we surprise ourselves with what we dig up and come to find out.

I've learned not to assume that a ruling is cut and dry....kind of like growing older and realizing that there is a lot of gray area from when you were young and things were right and wrong.

All I'm saying here is be careful when assuming that it's plain and simple. I think the mass majority of us who have become in depth students of Yugioh rules have found that if we do we'll undoubtedly find ourselves blushing profusely eventually.
 
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John Danker said:
It would be easy to assume that something like this is cut and dry. I can assure you though that we've been through numerous such cases in this forum where we've dug through numerous rulings to find rulings that should agree with each other that insted countradict one another. I can tell you that there are about a half dozen such cases that were taken to Konami last week by Kevin Tewart in an effort to try to get clarification.

We often get extremely in depth in this forum, it's actually something we take great pride in and devote a great deal of time to. Often times we surprise ourselves with what we dig up and come to find out.

I've learned not to assume that a ruling is cut and dry....kind of like growing older and realizing that there is a lot of gray area from when you were young and things were right and wrong.

All I'm saying here is be careful when assuming that it's plain and simple. I think the mass majority of us who have become in depth students of Yugioh rules have found that if we do we'll undoubtedly find ourselves blushing profusely eventually.
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Just as well that a Head Judge's rulings are final, otherwise these gray areas would result in riots.:eek:

DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Yes the card text looks different on those 3 monsters, but i remember Kevin posting a big article on how we shouldn't be analyzing card text.
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The game's becoming a bit of a joke really with Kevin posting things like that, the cards have rulings which are too complicated for the average kid to fully grasp the interactions, yet we're supposed to act like kids and just take things at UDE's word and not try analyse the Reasoning behind them using the card text. The simple problem as far as I see it is that we need a better team of people performing the translations, and insisting on accuracy over the use of innovative ways to say the same thing but slightly different. That way we could reference the card text and a lot of problems we have with various ruling inconsistancies would undoubtly be cleared up.
 
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daivahataka said:
The game's becoming a bit of a joke really with Kevin posting things like that, the cards have rulings which are too complicated for the average kid to fully grasp the interactions, yet we're supposed to act like kids and just take things at UDE's word and not try analyse the Reasoning behind them using the card text. The simple problem as far as I see it is that we need a better team of people performing the translations, and insisting on accuracy over the use of innovative ways to say the same thing but slightly different. That way we could reference the card text and a lot of problems we have with various ruling inconsistancies would undoubtly be cleared up.
Click to expand...

One of the core problems is that Konami wants the card's text translated word for word. That's often why what the card text says isn't what the card truly does. We have to remember the cultrural differences involved here. Trust me when I tell you that Kevin has fought long and hard to change even a word or two in a single card text from the Japanesse versions for clarity in the English language.

The idea of "just accepting" what's handed to us is the very way of the Japanesse culture. They're brought up not to question authority but just to accept it without question. Is it any wonder then a good deal of that shows up in their game?

For those of you that think that this game is ever going to someday all make sense, follow a hard and fast pattern, be consistant, and stick to templates.....get over it now. It's not going to happen. As I'm sure many of you have seen in some ways we're actually moving further AWAY from consistancy. There are always going to be 50-100 rulings that buck the game mechanic, rule of thumb, or are simply, "Because Konami says so!" In a twisted sort of way that's one of the things that makes this game unique....increadably frustrating at times, but unique.
 
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John Danker said:
One of the core problems is that Konami wants the card's text translated word for word. That's often why what the card text says isn't what the card truly does. We have to remember the cultrural differences involved here. Trust me when I tell you that Kevin has fought long and hard to change even a word or two in a single card text from the Japanesse versions for clarity in the English language.

The idea of "just accepting" what's handed to us is the very way of the Japanesse culture. They're brought up not to question authority but just to accept it without question. Is it any wonder then a good deal of that shows up in their game?

For those of you that think that this game is ever going to someday all make sense, follow a hard and fast pattern, be consistant, and stick to templates.....get over it now. It's not going to happen. As I'm sure many of you have seen in some ways we're actually moving further AWAY from consistancy. There are always going to be 50-100 rulings that buck the game mechanic, rule of thumb, or are simply, "Because Konami says so!" In a twisted sort of way that's one of the things that makes this game unique....increadably frustrating at times, but unique.
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It's bad buisness. The Japanese are know for there shrewed and sometimes obsesive buisness behavior. There is no excuse for this type of bad translating. Any buisness that has to deal with international markets should be deftly aware of how their product translates into forieng languages and cultures.

I know of cases where an international non-profit magazine (based in the US) had to change the ethnicity of the people on thier covers when distributing to a certain part of Africa. They simply couldn't use caucasians on the cover because the community in that area didn't respond to lierature that they thought was produced by the white man. They even have to go so far as to diferentiate two versions of the new covers becasue there are opposing tribes in that area and it would be insulting to feature the likness of one tribe when disseminating it to the other.

This is a non profit organization and they go to such extremes to make sure there magazine is read. Konami is so content with thier success that they've failed to realize the've become poor buisnessmen when it comes to there overseas dealings. If something isn't done about this bad buisness practice, then the company will surely suffer down the road. And so will the game (more so then it already is.)
 
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I couldn't agree more with you more Digital Jedi. It reminds me of when Disney decided to go to Europe and the advisers there told them that certain things wouldn't fly. The people at Disney pretty much told them to mind their own business, that they've been in the business for upteen years and they knew what they were doing. After about 5 years of having Euro-Disney be a flop they swallowed their pride and revamped things to better appease the European cliente and now their doing a respectable business.

This is a lesson Konami needs to learn if they want to maximize their profits as well.
 
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Unfortunately, how do you intend to get the message to them? I see so many good arguments and statements made and discussed for the improvement of the game in the English market. But, I wonder if any of these things make it past the website in which it was generated? Is Konami aware of the issue, beyond the grumblings of one overworked US representative (Kevin Tewart)?
 
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squid said:
Unfortunately, how do you intend to get the message to them? I see so many good arguments and statements made and discussed for the improvement of the game in the English market. But, I wonder if any of these things make it past the website in which it was generated? Is Konami aware of the issue, beyond the grumblings of one overworked US representative (Kevin Tewart)?
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Probably not. And that is fundimentaly the problem. If you owned a buisness, wouldn't you want to know that your regular customers were gradually becoming disatisfied with your product? Or would you just ignore them because you don't really care about the opinions of a bunch of foriegners?
 
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Well after making the rulings printer friendly, and then printing them out, i found that Fusilier was mentioned in them:

Elemental Hero Flame Wingman - Fusion Monster Card
["Elemental Hero Avian" + "Elemental Hero Burstinatrix"
This monster cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon. When
this card destroys a monster and sends it to the Graveyard as a result
of battle, inflict damage to your opponent's Life Points equal to the
ATK of the destroyed monster.]

If your "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" destroys a "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" that was (normal) Summoned without Tribute, inflict 1400 damage to your opponent's Life Points.

And alot of other cards had similar rulings, i imagine that this new mechanic was created for this sets release. I don't mind changing the rules a bit as the game evolves.. but i'd at least like an announcement about it...

EDIT:
The damage inflicted by the effect of "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" is
based on the ATK of the destroyed monster in the Graveyard. So it's the
original ATK of the monster.

 
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