Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast

[Jack-Wyler]

Hello all ,

I would like to know if Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast's original attack strengh was 1400 or 2800 when it is summoned without tribute .
Because my oppenent equipped it with Megamorph and said that its attack become 5600 because its original attack strengh was 2800 but however it is written on the card that THE ORIGINAL ATTACK would become halved when it is summoned without tribute

Can you help me ?

p.s: excuse my english , I am a French guy

 

[densetsu_x]

Actually, that doesn't give an example of a new mechanic since the text you list simply says "inflict damage equal to the ATK of the destroyed monster". So that is simply looking at the Current ATK and not the Original ATK.

 

[novastar]

Unfortunately, how do you intend to get the message to them? I see so many good arguments and statements made and discussed for the improvement of the game in the English market. But, I wonder if any of these things make it past the website in which it was generated? Is Konami aware of the issue, beyond the grumblings of one overworked US representative (Kevin Tewart)?

It's seems (and this is from the outside view that i have) that there is one particular market that Konami seems to care about.

Thier core customer... kids, and indirectly... thier parents.

As soon as a parent starts to complain, all of the sudden Konami jumps.

They couldn't risk having there precious parental money going down the drain, or have a parent(s) decide that they do not wish to buy cards for thier kid(s).

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Actually, that doesn't give an example of a new mechanic since the text you list simply says "inflict damage equal to the ATK of the destroyed monster". So that is simply looking at the Current ATK and not the Original ATK.

"The damage inflicted by the effect of "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" is based on the ATK of the destroyed monster in the Graveyard. So it's the original ATK of the monster."

 

[Digital Jedi]

It's seems (and this is from the outside view that i have) that there is one particular market that Konami seems to care about.

Thier core customer... kids, and indirectly... thier parents.

As soon as a parent starts to complain, all of the sudden Konami jumps.

They couldn't risk having there precious parental money going down the drain, or have a parent(s) decide that they do not wish to buy cards for thier kid(s).

Another example of bad buisness practices. When your target demographic expands, expand with it. You'll make more money that way.

 

[roadhouse007]

"The damage inflicted by the effect of "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" is based on the ATK of the destroyed monster in the Graveyard. So it's the original ATK of the monster."

also,

Elemental Hero Flame Wingman - Fusion Monster Card
["Elemental Hero Avian" + "Elemental Hero Burstinatrix"
This monster cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon. When
this card destroys a monster and sends it to the Graveyard as a result
of battle, inflict damage to your opponent's Life Points equal to the
ATK of the destroyed monster.]

If your "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" destroys a "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" that was (normal) Summoned without Tribute, inflict 1400 damage to your opponent's Life Points.

Fusiler Dragon does read "the original ATK/DEF of this card are then halved", but taking the cards literally can be a big problem. I would think that after noticing this though that 'original ATK' would refer to 1400 if summoned without tributes, making Megamorph affect the attack strength by making it 700 or 2800, depending on life points. I thought differently earlier though.

But what if elemental hero flame wingman had destroyed a monster equipped with an equip card? Would the damage not be the current attack of the monster when it is destroyed and sent from the field? This is just my thoughts on it because I am not sure, but say you destroyed a Fusiler Dragon (no tributes) with Flint equipped to it. Would the damage to life points not be 1100 because that was the attack of Fusiler Dragon when it was sent to the graveyard?

All of this debating over rulings makes my head feel like it is going to explode....Kevin where are you???? Save us!!!

 

[netwt]

It would be easy to assume that something like this is cut and dry. I can assure you though that we've been through numerous such cases in this forum where we've dug through numerous rulings to find rulings that should agree with each other that insted countradict one another. I can tell you that there are about a half dozen such cases that were taken to Konami last week by Kevin Tewart in an effort to try to get clarification.

We often get extremely in depth in this forum, it's actually something we take great pride in and devote a great deal of time to. Often times we surprise ourselves with what we dig up and come to find out.

I've learned not to assume that a ruling is cut and dry....kind of like growing older and realizing that there is a lot of gray area from when you were young and things were right and wrong.

All I'm saying here is be careful when assuming that it's plain and simple. I think the mass majority of us who have become in depth students of Yugioh rules have found that if we do we'll undoubtedly find ourselves blushing profusely eventually.

Maybe I was to tired last night when I wrote this, but I can a sure you it's a complete analysis behind my opinion, I don't give anything for granted un less "Konami say so" (believe me I'm not agree that Divine Wrath can't negate the effect of Exodia the Forbidden One, it just don't get logic to me, just as an example).
Some times I think that some people take the ranking to serious I am just a Gamer Wannabe, but that's just because I don't have enough time to enter the forum, not because I'm a lousy Yugioh! Player. If this is what you are saying.
So lest start.

The first ruling of Megamorph for now in the Runin database is
- - - -
"¢ "Megamorph" changes the original (printed) ATK of the monster it is equipped to. Having multiple "Megamorphs" equipped to a monster is the same as having one.
- - - -
So this mean Megamorph only refers to the ORIGINAL PRINTED ATK on the card. "Nothing more to say about it."

I'll need to quote now

If we assume your brain exploded from the center, then your hippocampus would most likely have been blown down your throat.

2 Megamorphs the last one to resolve would be the end result. The effects of Megamorphs are enver cumulative.

Megamorph one doubles/halves "Original ATK" to get modified attack A. Then the second one doubles/halves "Original ATK" to get B. At which point we completely forget about A and pretend it never existed

To me, this mean the last Megamorph effects resolves by calculating over the "printed" ATK, and pass over any past ATK modified. This is why Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast gets 5600 ATK if the Megamorph owner haves the lowest life points in the game, or 1400 ATK if have highest life points. Even when I think that ALL the monster that have an effect to modified the Original ATK act like if they reprinted the ATK(and this is only to the porpoise to have an easier calculation of Increases and Decreases or Doubles and Halves on the ATK), this do not change the point that Megamorph only refers to the really printed ATK on the card, because the "Original ATK modifiers monsters" only has an EFFECT that affect them when they are on the field, but when something negates their effect, removes them from the field, or in the case of Megamorph recalculate the Original ATK they get the printed ATK back to the card (am I wrong?).
IF a ruling like this one gets change THEN what happened when Relinquished equip a Fusilier Dragon summoned by its effect, Relinquished will be a 1400 ATK monster, because Fusilier Dragon change it's ORIGINAL ATK, this one doesn't get any sense don't you think.
This is why this particular case is a very simple issue to me; I do no try to get it "cut and dry", just simple and easy.

 

[skey23]

"The damage inflicted by the effect of "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" is based on the ATK of the destroyed monster in the Graveyard. So it's the original ATK of the monster."

Ok, lets analyze this statement here.

The key phrase, to me at least, is the fact it looks at the ATK of the monster when it's IN THE GRAVEYARD. Any modifiers would be 'reset' and/or 'lost' when it hits the Graveyard.

So it doesn't matter HOW "Fusilier" was summoned because the 'original' ATK of the monster while in the Graveyard 'should'/'will' always be 2800, how can it be anything else?

What happens when a "Maju Garzett" or a "Gren Maju Da Eiza" is destroyed by the "Flame Wingman"? How much damage would be done in this case?

I would think that answer would be 0, since that's what they would be in the Graveyard.

 

[skey23]

Now, regarding "Megamorph"...lol

Let's look at another ruling from a monster 'more similar' to the "Skull King", in my opinion...

"Chaos Necromancer":
"If "Chaos Necromancer" is equipped with "Megamorph", its ATK is zero, but if "Megamorph" leaves play, recalculate the ATK of "Chaos Necromancer" using his effect."

They both recalculate their ATK based on the # of 'monsters' in the graveyard, yet one ruling states the ATK would become 0 while equipped with "Megamorph", while the other states it will calculate the ATK 1st, then apply "Megamorph"....hmmm.

 

[densetsu_x]

1) Re: Chaos Necromancer: The ORIGINAL ATK is 0. The effect states that the ATK = # Mon in GY * 300.

2) Re: Megamorph: Until RDS, the ORIGINAL ATK was always what is printed on the card. Now we have Fusilier Dragon. This is the FIRST card that states a redefining of what the ORINGAL ATK is by its own effect. The same way that the "Effect" of say "Cyber Harpie Lady" states "This card's name is "Harpie Lady". Remember, the text on the card can override the rules of the game. Therefore (as stated earlier in the thread) we're looking possibly at a new game mechanic. And guess what? Fusilier Dragon is NOT the only monster with that wording. Behemoth, the King of all Animals has the same kind of text description. So obviously, it wasn't a fluke that it was worded this way. So merely stating "this is cut and dry" is a wrong thing to say. We have "proof" of sort that can support both ways. Only 1 is right. We'll see which way it ends up.

And remember this. How much of the rulings did we "know" for certain 2 years go? 1 year ago? 6 months ago? Just think what we will "know" for certain tomorrow.

 

[squid]

Im sorry, I dont have the ruling for "Skull King". Could you post that or its link so that I (and others) can keep it clear in my mind.

the whole thing of Flame Wingman, or rather Fusilier, going off of 1400 from the Grave, smacks of inconsistency. There are no monster effects that take place in the Graveyard, outside of those whose text specifically mentions it. (Ex: Marie the Fallen; Helpoemer) Fusilier the Dual Mode Beast is definitely not in that class of monsters.

Exactly which attack do I base the damage off of when the Flame Wingman destroys a Twin-Headed Behemoth that has already used its effect and was at an attack of 1000?

 

[skey23]

Here's the info on "King of Skull Servants":

"[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The original ATK of this card becomes the number of "King of the Skull Servants" and "Skull Servant" cards in your Graveyard x 1000 points. When this card is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, remove from play 1 other "King of the Skull Servants" or "Skull Servant" card in your Graveyard to Special Summon this card."

Rulings:
The original ATK of "King of the Skull Servants" is determined by its effect. This is further doubled/halved by "Megamorph" and other effects that are based off of original ATK. If the number of "Skull Servant" and "King of the Skull Servants" cards in your Graveyard changes,
re-calculate the original ATK of "King of the Skull Servants", then re-apply the effect of "Megamorph".

Removing from play 1 "Skull Servant" or "King of the Skull Servants" to Special Summon a "King of the Skull Servants" is a cost.[/font]

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Twin-Headed Behemoth is easy, it does 1500 damage.

Now how much damage does Ring of Destruction do when it destroys a Great Maju Garzette (Tribute summoned by tributing Berserk Gorilla) does it do 4000 or 0? (The monster is destroyed and presumably sent to the graveyard before the damage is inflicted)

BUt then there's this?
If you use "Cost Down" so that your "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" in your hand is Level 6, then you cannot discard it to activate "Double Attack" and target your Level 7 "Dark Magician" on the field.

These rulings involving Flame WIngman suggest that a monster forgets modifiers when its sent to the graveyard.. but Blue-eyes remembers that its only level 6 (and Cost Down does not say "original" level)

Here are the rulings:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=5073

 

[skey23]

Re: "Chaos Necromancer" and "Megamorph" via densetsu_x's answer. Now that makes sense. The 'printed' ATK on the card is 0 and; therefore, 'should' be considered the 'original' ATK of the card.

And I see what you're saying about the 'new' text wording with the 'original ATK becomes' stuff now. It does 'fit' better into the scheme of things with "Megamorph".

So I would say, based on this 'new' info, that a "Fusilier Dragon" summoned via it's effect, then equipped with "Megamorph" would have it's ATK/DEF set to either 2800/2000 or 700/500.


For squid re: "Twin-Headed Behemoth", the damage done would be 1500 since it is the 'original' ATK of the card. Unless the card gets errata'd to say it's 'original' ATK/DEF become 1000/1000, I don't think that will change.

 

[skey23]

Now how much damage does Ring of Destruction do when it destroys a Great Maju Garzette (Tribute summoned by tributing Berserk Gorilla) does it do 4000 or 0? (The monster is destroyed and presumably sent to the graveyard before the damage is inflicted)

It will do the 4000. But again, I point out the fact that the ruling states the ATK of the monster is determined while it's in the Graveyard. And there is no such ruling for "Ring of Destruction"......yet.

If you were agreeing with me, sorry.....lol.

 

[skey23]

BUt then there's this?
If you use "Cost Down" so that your "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" in your hand is Level 6, then you cannot discard it to activate "Double Attack" and target your Level 7 "Dark Magician" on the field.

These rulings involving Flame WIngman suggest that a monster forgets modifiers when its sent to the graveyard.. but Blue-eyes remembers that its only level 6 (and Cost Down does not say "original" level)

I think this one works as designed.

"Double Attack"
"[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Discard 1 Monster Card from your hand to the Graveyard. Select 1 monster on your side of the field with a lower Level than the discarded monster. The selected monster can attack twice this turn."

What level was "BEWD" when it was discarded for "Double Attack"? It doesn't matter what the level is in the Graveyard, it only cares about what level it is when it's discarded from the hand.
[/font]

 

[squid]

so you guys are saying that there is basically a new type of attack/defence modifier, effects that say "become" (as in "the original attack becomes") as opposed to effects that modify attack/defense only while on the field?
Or, at least there possibly is?

So, we arent looking at a simple "one card acts this way, another card acts differently, deal with it" kind of thing.

Re: Ring of Destruction, I simply had assumed (I know, wrong to do) that RoD stamped the attack of the destroyed monster in memory. After the monster was sent to the Graveyard, the damage inflicted was based upon the 'remembered' attack.

Re: Double Attack, the text states:
Discarding 1 Monster Card from your hand to the Graveyard. Select 1 monster on yourside of the field with a lower Level than the discarded monster. The selected monster can attack twice this turn.

the ruling only says:
Discarding a monster for Double Attack is a cost. This effect targets.

Based on that, plus knowing what DaGuyWitBluGlasses wrote of:

If you use "Cost Down" so that your "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" in your hand is Level 6, then you cannot discard it to activate "Double Attack" and target your Level 7 "Dark Magician" on the field.

These rulings involving Flame WIngman suggest that a monster forgets modifiers when its sent to the graveyard.. but Blue-eyes remembers that its only level 6 (and Cost Down does not say "original" level)

makes me believe that the selected monster must be chosen before the cost is paid, to determine whether or not the cost is correct. At that time BEWD is still in the hand and contains a level of 6 stars.

I realize the text of Double Attack places the cost before the selection, but how else can you determine whether the player activating Double Attack is discarding a monster for no effect?

It's like discarding for TIV and declaring a type that is not present on the field. A 6* BEWD (under the influence of Cost Down) is discarded, but no 5* monsters exist on the field for the effect to resolve properly. It would be an illegal activation.

I know why everyone complains about being beat to the punch on answers, lol! Read skey23's, not mine. Its more succint.

 

[densetsu_x]

Yes that is what we are saying. That there is the "possibility" that an effect will reset the Original ATK/DEF to something other than what is printed on the card which would then become basis for all other effects such as Megamorph, Relinquished, etc.

 

[squid]

when this attack is reset, for Fusilier, to 1400, and you activate Call of the Haunted on it, we are assuming it resets again to 2800, correct?

If you were to have 2 Fusilier Dragon cards in the Graveyard and one has the modified original attack of 1400, while the other has the printed 2800, how does a player, and opponent determine which one has been affected.

I guess this would be more relevant for something like the King of Skull Servants, where the modified attack may fluctuate based on how often Skull Servants or Skull Kings are entering and leaving the Grave. Also, how would you determine which Skull King to remove, if you wanted to keep the one with the higher modified original attack in the Graveyard?

Am I making any sense?

Im just thinking vaguely of the Reasoning behind why Twin Headed Behemoth was restricted to one.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

King of the Skull Servants continuously readjust its original attack, it doesn't matter which one you summon.

How much attack did a monster have when it was tributed for Gift of the Martyr? but Gift of the Martyr still looks at original attack even though it didn't say so.

 

[skey23]

when this attack is reset, for Fusilier, to 1400, and you activate Call of the Haunted on it, we are assuming it resets again to 2800, correct?

Yes, it will reset back to 2800/2000 if/when it's brought back from the Graveyard.

If you were to have 2 Fusilier Dragon cards in the Graveyard and one has the modified original attack of 1400, while the other has the printed 2800, how does a player, and opponent determine which one has been affected.

I still think the ruling on "Flame Wingman" is wrong on this one. Once the monster hits the Graveyard, all modifiers 'should' be reset and "Fusilier" 'should' return back to a 2800/2000 monster no matter how it was summoned; therefore inflicting 2800 damage to the opponent.

I guess this would be more relevant for something like the King of Skull Servants, where the modified attack may fluctuate based on how often Skull Servants or Skull Kings are entering and leaving the Grave. Also, how would you determine which Skull King to remove, if you wanted to keep the one with the higher modified original attack in the Graveyard?

See my answer about this above....lol.

Am I making any sense?

Yes

Im just thinking vaguely of the Reasoning behind why Twin Headed Behemoth was restricted to one.

The only thing I can think of is because it comes back without having to pay any kind of cost, i.e. Life Points, Tributing a monster, etc...


Just my $.02!