Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast

J

Jack-Wyler

New Member
Hello all ,

I would like to know if Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast's original attack strengh was 1400 or 2800 when it is summoned without tribute .
Because my oppenent equipped it with Megamorph and said that its attack become 5600 because its original attack strengh was 2800 but however it is written on the card that THE ORIGINAL ATTACK would become halved when it is summoned without tribute

Can you help me ?

p.s: excuse my english , I am a French guy
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
ChaosEmperor12 said:
I think as in the case of Relinquished it would double 0 however it would make sense if it doubled the atk of the abrorbed monster because the text on Relinquished says "this card takes on the atk and def. of an opponents monster"
Click to expand...
If we are going off the 'new' text statements, then a "Relinquished" equipped with a 1900 ATK monster, then equipped with "Megamorph" would/should have it's ATK/DEF set back to 0/0 since the text of "Relinquished" does NOT say "The original ATK/DEF of this card becomes...". Then, if "Megamorph" is destroyed, I believe "Relinquished" would go back to being a 1900 ATK monster due to it's effect.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
skey23 said:
Yes, it will reset back to 2800/2000 if/when it's brought back from the Graveyard.

I still think the ruling on "Flame Wingman" is wrong on this one. Once the monster hits the Graveyard, all modifiers 'should' be reset and "Fusilier" 'should' return back to a 2800/2000 monster no matter how it was summoned; therefore inflicting 2800 damage to the opponent.

See my answer about this above....lol.

Yes

The only thing I can think of is because it comes back without having to pay any kind of cost, i.e. Life Points, Tributing a monster, etc...


Just my $.02!
Click to expand...

No, I agree. The rulings for Flame Wingman arent sitting well with me. But that may be simply because it is setting a precedent that may cause further complications down the line. what the ruling is stating is cuasing a mechanic for its effect alone. Not for any other cards. (like the RoD example)

Twin Headed Behemoth was restricted, I believe, because of how it interacted with Fiber Jar. after a Fiber Jar had flipped, how would you be able to tell which out of 3 THB had used its effect, and which hadn't.

Isnt there a Kuriboh L. 10 that will destroy monsters on the field and then calculate damage of the total monsters destroyed? Will it base its calculations off the stats of the monsters from when they were on the field, or when they reside in the Grave?

Relinquished:
0. Any absorbed monster is no more than a modifier in the same respect as Axe of Despair. Megamorph wouldnt touch it.
(kind of snobbish of it, really)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Megamorph doesn't overwrite all other ATK modifications. Its effect states that its doubling or halving occurs before the calculation of what any other modifier does to that monster. If Summoned Skull equipped with Axe of Despair (3500 ATK) is then equipped with Megamorph, Megamorph will double or halve the original ATK (5000 or 1250) and then Axe will had 1000 (6000 or 2250).

ChaosEmpoeror12 just above is correct with his Relinquished.

I say that Fusilier Dragon equipped with Megamorph will have either 2800 ATK (if doubled) or 700 ATK (if halved) since its original ATK is made to be 1400 by its effect.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
It's a matter of timing. Whichever effect resloved last will take precedence. I'm going to break apart the Karate Man ruling to clarify (Bold text is from the FAQ):
_________________________________________________

If "Karate Man is equipped with "Megamorph" and its ATK is being halved, if you then activate its effect, its ATK is 2000.

Activating Karate Man's effect AFTER you've equipped it Megamorph will override Megamorph's effect.

If you activate its effect and then equip it with "Megamorph" while your Life Points are greater than your opponent's, its ATK is 500.

Activating Karate Man's effect BEFORE you equip it with Megamorph works the other way around. Megamorph was activated last and overides Karate Man's modifier.

If "Karate Man" is equipped with "Megamorph" and you activate its effect, or if you activate its effect and then equip it with "Megamorph" while your Life Points are less than your opponent's, its ATK is 2000.

The exact same thing happens when your Life Points are lower, the last effect to resolve determines which takes precedence. It's just in Karate Man's case, regardless of which effect was activated last, both just so happen to be setting the ATK to 2000.
_________________________________________________

So in Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast's case, the effect that determines his ATK and DEF is always going to take place before you can equip Megamorph to him because that occurs upon summoning.

As a result Megamorph will overide any modifiers from Fusilier's effect becasue it will be the last to resolve.

So a Fusilier summoned without tribute and then equipped with Megamorph will be at 1400 when your Life Points are higher and at 5600 when your Life Points are lower.

And a Fusilier summoned with tribute and then equipped with Megamorph will be at 1400 when your Life Points are higher and at 5600 when your Life Points are lower.

Either way Megamorph is going to overide Fusilier's effect. (At least the ATK. His DEF will work as normal.)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Elemental Hero Flame Wingman - Fusion Monster Card
["Elemental Hero Avian" + "Elemental Hero Burstinatrix"
This monster cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon. When this card destroys a monster and sends it to the Graveyard as a result of battle, inflict damage to your opponent's Life Points equal to the ATK of the destroyed monster.

If your "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" destroys a "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" that was Summoned without Tribute, inflict 1400 damage to your opponent's Life Points.
This makes perfect sense as Fusilier will be destroyed and sent to the Graveyard when determining his stats.

Fusilier will have no modifiers on him when he is sent to the Graveyard. The origininal (printed) ATK will be the determining factor.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Digital Jedi said:
Elemental Hero Flame Wingman - Fusion Monster Card
["Elemental Hero Avian" + "Elemental Hero Burstinatrix"
This monster cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon. When this card destroys a monster and sends it to the Graveyard as a result of battle, inflict damage to your opponent's Life Points equal to the ATK of the destroyed monster.

If your "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" destroys a "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" that was Summoned without Tribute, inflict 1400 damage to your opponent's Life Points.
This makes perfect sense as Fusilier will be destroyed and sent to the Graveyard when determining his stats.

Fusilier will have no modifiers on him when he is sent to the Graveyard. The origininal (printed) ATK will be the determining factor.
Click to expand...

Huh?
Im sorry, I got lost. you are saying that when Flame Wingman destroys Fusilier, that it makes sense for 1400 to be the determined Effect Damage because Fusilier will be destroyed and sent to the Grave when determining stats. That suggests, to me, that you are saying that the stats are determined while Fusilier is still on the field.

However, the rulings on Flame Wingman even state that:
The damage inflicted by the effect of "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" is
based on the ATK of the destroyed monster in the Graveyard. So it's the
original ATK of the monster.
Click to expand...

Your own last statement was
Fusilier will have no modifiers on him when he is sent to the Graveyard. The origininal (printed) ATK will be the determining factor
Click to expand...
If that were the case, then wouldn't the determining factor be 2800, the original (printed) attack of Fusilier?

The 2 things dont fit together (in my confused mind) unless we take the statements from earlier that show we might be seeing the beginning of a new mechanic. One where effects that state "the attack/defense of this monster become..". If that is the case, then there is no modifier to Fusilier's attack. It simply ...is.

*goes for the Advil*
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I did e-mail the list about this back when the TLM rulings came out. Until something is heard back from them (if ever) I'm suggesting (and only a suggestion) that a semi-moritorium be placed here. The debates and discussions are good, but we are going round in circles somewhat and ultimately will only set to confuse people more. I'd rather wait personally to get something definate before jumping back into this hornet's nest.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Digital Jedi said:
It's a matter of timing. Whichever effect resloved Last Will take precedence. I'm going to break apart the Karate Man ruling to clarify (Bold text is from the FAQ):
Click to expand...
You are comparing apples to oranges.

Karate Man and Megamorph produce the exact same effect, so naturally you would perform a straight Timestamp resolution. Whichever effect was the latest will take precedence.

Axe of Despair is not the same, it is simply a straight ATK modifier that gets piled on top at the end. Megamorph infact creates a dependancy here and would always be applied first, similar to Shield & Sword. You should then apply Axe, afterwords on top of it.

The logic for Megamorph has always been off, because it is the type of effect that would truly cause headaches for youngsters (and vetrans like myself), if you were to properly apply the dependancy rules.

The real key is the "become" wording and whether it actually changes the printed ATK, or simply modifies it. That will determine the answer to the Fusilier + Megamorph question.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The other issue with the "Karate Man" rulings is the fact that "Karate Man"s effect is not 'redefining' what the original ATK of the monster is. It's like Novastar said, it's only modifying the original ATK of the monster.

Whereas, "Fusilier" IS 'redefining' what the original ATK of the monster is.

So "Fusilier"s effect would come first, making the 'original' ATK, NOT the 'printed' ATK, 1400. Then, "Megamorph" comes into play, looking at the 'original' ATK (1400), then modifying it accordingly.


Just my take on this whole issue.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Well it makes sense, based on the rulings we have available. but it is still a bit speculative, since this "modified original" attack is the first of its kind to appear in any kind of ruling.

I dont see how we can come to any clearer of an agreement about Fusilier and similar card effects, until we get an authoratative statement leading us to one conclusion or another.

Megamorph is another issue. Part of which is waiting for that same confirmation.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
squid said:
Huh?
Im sorry, I got lost. you are saying that when Flame Wingman destroys Fusilier, that it makes sense for 1400 to be the determined Effect Damage because Fusilier will be destroyed and sent to the Grave when determining stats. That suggests, to me, that you are saying that the stats are determined while Fusilier is still on the field.

However, the rulings on Flame Wingman even state that:


Your own last statement was

If that were the case, then wouldn't the determining factor be 2800, the original (printed) attack of Fusilier?

The 2 things dont fit together (in my confused mind) unless we take the statements from earlier that show we might be seeing the beginning of a new mechanic. One where effects that state "the attack/defense of this monster become..". If that is the case, then there is no modifier to Fusilier's attack. It simply ...is.

*goes for the Advil*
Click to expand...
Wait a minute, I just copy and pasted Wingmans effect into my post last night from DaGuy's post. I could have sworn that Wingman inflicted HALF the ATK of the destryoyed monster. Not the full ATK. I'm almost certain I read an earlier translation that said it inflicted half. :confuse:
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
novastar said:
You are comparing apples to oranges.

Karate Man and Megamorph produce the exact same effect, so naturally you would perform a straight Timestamp resolution. Whichever effect was the latest will take precedence.

Axe of Despair is not the same, it is simply a straight ATK modifier that gets piled on top at the end. Megamorph infact creates a dependancy here and would always be applied first, similar to Shield & Sword. You should then apply Axe, afterwords on top of it.

The logic for Megamorph has always been off, because it is the type of effect that would truly cause headaches for youngsters (and vetrans like myself), if you were to properly apply the dependancy rules.

The real key is the "become" wording and whether it actually changes the printed ATK, or simply modifies it. That will determine the answer to the Fusilier + Megamorph question.
Click to expand...
I dont see any difference in how the two types of modifiers apply here. I understand that one mathematically modifies the original and the other simply stacks on to the existing. But both would be modifiers either way you slice it and one should take precedence over the other. Timestamping makes perfect sense here.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I dont know. I have the current spoiler plus an older Japanese to English version. both say the same thing about the attack. Not half. But, whatever. Its cool. At least we are getting closer to the same page, right?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Digital Jedi said:
I dont see any difference in how the two types of modifiers apply here. I understand that one mathematically modifies the original and the other simply stacks on to the existing. But both would be modifiers either way you slice it and one should take precedence over the other. Timestamping makes perfect sense here.
Click to expand...
Actually, both effects are 'identical'...lol. That's why it 'seems' to work and make sense...lol.

"Megamorph":
"While your Life Points are lower than your opponent's, double the original ATK of a monster equipped with this card. While your Life Points are higher, halve the original ATK."

"Karate Man":
"You can double the original ATK of this card once per turn."

Notice that BOTH state double the original ATK. Neither effects 'redefine' the value of the original ATK.

What is the original ATK of "Karate Man"? 1000.

1. So, if I use "Karate Man"s effect and double the original ATK, so his current ATK is 2000, then equip with "Megamorph" what will happen? Remember, his effect did not 'redefine' the original ATK of "Karate Man", it simply doubled it.

a.) If my LP are higher, then "Megamorph" will halve the original ATK, which is still 1000 DESPITE "Karate Man"s effect, so "Karate Man"s ATK will become 500.
b.) If my LP are lower, then "Megamorph" will double the original ATK, which is still 1000 DESPITE "Karate Man"s effect, so "Karate Man"s ATK will become 2000.

2. So, if I equip my "Karate Man" with "Megamorph" and..

a.) My LP are lower, then "Megamorph" will double the original ATK, and "Karate Man" will be at 2000 ATK. Now if for some reason I wish to use the effect of "Karate Man", then all his effect does is double the original ATK, which is still 1000 DESPITE "Megamorph"s effect, so he will stay at 2000 ATK.

b.) My LP are higher, then "Megamorph" will halve the original ATK, and "Karate Man" will be at 500 ATK. Now, if I wish to use "Karate Man"s effect, then it will double the original ATK, which is still 1000 DESPITE "Megamorph"s effect, so he will be boosted to 2000 ATK.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Digital Jedi said:
I dont see any difference in how the two types of modifiers apply here. I understand that one mathematically modifies the original and the other simply stacks on to the existing. But both would be modifiers either way you slice it and one should take precedence over the other. Timestamping makes perfect sense here.
Click to expand...
It may not be apparent with 1 Axe and 1 Megamorph.

If i added another Axe, United We Stand, and Mage Power you would see that Megamorph would always be calculated first, to create a baseline ATK. The rest of the 4 Equips would be added on in Timestamp order.

Understanding now?

Effects like Megamorph (which affect Original ATK) always create the baseline first from which the rest of the ATK modifiers get added on to.

EDIT: Wow... my 1000th post, i really gotta get a life...:p. Aren't you guys sick of me yet?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top