Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast

[Jack-Wyler]

Hello all ,

I would like to know if Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast's original attack strengh was 1400 or 2800 when it is summoned without tribute .
Because my oppenent equipped it with Megamorph and said that its attack become 5600 because its original attack strengh was 2800 but however it is written on the card that THE ORIGINAL ATTACK would become halved when it is summoned without tribute

Can you help me ?

p.s: excuse my english , I am a French guy

 

[netwt]

I have research the cards in the game that seems to modified the Original ATK in some way.

Shield & Sword
Normal Spell

Switch the original ATK and DEF of all face-up monsters on the field until the end of the End Phase. Any additions and subtractions to ATK and DEF due to card effects are applied to the new ATK and DEF. Monsters Summoned after this card's activation are excluded.

Cat's Ear Tribe
Effect Monster (Beast-Warrior / EARTH / 1 Star / ATK 200 / DEF 100)

The original ATK of your opponent's monster(s) that battles with this card during his/her turn becomes 200 points during the Damage Step.

Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast
Effect Monster (Machine / DARK / 7 Stars / ATK 2800 / DEF 2000)

This card can be Normal Summoned or Set without Tribute. In that case, the original ATK/DEF of this card become halved.

Behemoth the King of All Animals
Effect Monster (Beast / EARTH / 7 Stars / ATK 2700 / DEF 1500)

This card can be Normal Summoned or Set with 1 Tribute Monster. In that case, the original ATK of this card becomes 2000. When this card is Tribute Summoned successfully, you can return from your Graveyard to the owner's hand a number of Beast-Type monsters equal to the number of Tributed monsters.

King of the Skull Servants
Effect Monster (Zombie / DARK / 1 Star / ATK ? / DEF 0)

The original ATK of this card becomes the number of "King of the Skull Servants" and "Skull Servant" cards in your Graveyard x 1000 points. When this card is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, remove from play 1 other "King of the Skull Servants" or "Skull Servant" card in your Graveyard to Special Summon this card.

Megarock Dragon
Effect Monster (Rock / EARTH / 7 Stars / ATK ? / DEF ?)

This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by removing from play a Rock-Type monster(s) in your Graveyard. The original ATK and DEF of this card become the number of Rock-Type monsters you removed from play when you Special Summoned this card x 700 points.

Lost Guardian
Effect Monster (Rock / EARTH / 4 Stars / ATK 100 / DEF ?)

The original DEF of this card becomes the number of your Rock-Type monsters that are removed from play x 700 points.

In any case this discussions for now is about how we will now resolve the many situations that can happened in a Duel. The most common will be VS any card that make reference to the Original ATK/DEF. Megamorph is the one that we have use the most, because of the ruling we already have.

But, What if we are discussing over nothing?, what if we are misunderstanding the phrase "the original ATK/DEF of this card become" as if this effect erase the card ATK "printed", so if that monster goes to the graveyard it should stay changed, for example in the case of Fusilier, if is destroyed the ATK will steal be 1400 when it goes to the graveyard because you used his effect, isn't? (I do know it has no sense). What if there are no way to change the original ATK/DEF, and this cards only refer to a simple way to calculate their ATK/DEF based on their effects?

I remember some one use the example of Cyber Harpie Lady, Harpie Lady 1, 2 and 3, as the first card that modified what's printed on the card, (A Legendary Ocean was actually the first one in that case) but my point here is that we are misunderstanding something here, Harpie Ladys, and A Legendary Ocean, does not change the physical structure of the card, this cards have only a continuous Effect that states that this cards are the same as using the one they referee to. But in the case of the cards that modified the original ATK/DEF, this is not the same.

In the case of Elemental Hero Flame Wingman there are two rules that gives us some guidelines
"¢ The damage inflicted by the effect of "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" is based on the ATK of the destroyed monster in the Graveyard. So it's the original ATK of the monster.

It says in the graveyard right?

"¢ If your "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" destroys a "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" that was Summoned without Tribute, inflict 1400 damage to your opponent's Life Points.

Its says inflict 1400 damage, so the Original printed ATK gets actually erased? And as I say, because of its effect Fusilier now has 1400 ATK, and if you revived it will have 1400 ATK, don't. Even when this get no sense at all. Something that Fusilier rulings do not states is, what happened if a Fusilier summoned by its effect is destroyed and send to the graveyard, and later revived via Monster Reborn, or some other effect to the field? This is because it seems to be obvious that his ATK will be 2800, but right now I don't now that for sure. And what happened if you use Interdimensional Matter Transporter on Fusilier summoned by its effect, that its Effect gets reset? We don't now that for sure. What we know its that there is a big contradiction right now because of one rule on Fusilier that states:

"¢ If you Summoned this card without Tribute, and then "Skill Drain" is later activated, the ATK and DEF are no longer halved. If "Skill Drain" is later destroyed, the ATK and DEF still remain 2800/2000.

So the Effect of Fusilier is just an Effect that can get RESET, and so the Original ATK that were halved was never ever even writhed on the card. (My head it's a mess right now.)

 

[Raijinili]

可変機獣　ガンナードラゴン
このカードは生け贄なしで通常召喚する事ができる。
その場合、このカードの元々の攻撃力・守備力は半分になる。

ワイトキング
このカードの元々の攻撃力は、自分の墓地に存在する「ワイトキング」「ワイト」の数×１０００ポイントの数値になる。
このカードが戦闘によって破壊され墓地へ送られた時、
自分の墓地の「ワイトキング」または「ワイト」１体をゲームから除外する事で、このカードを特殊召喚する。

The JERP has 1400 as the base attack (if the effect came in) for Megamorph and Garzet, if that hurts any. Since January, actually.

Just a reminder, there were several mistakes in the rulings we got for the Flaming Eternity sneak preview.
like this one:
http://www.cogonline.net/threads.7040

So i'd suspect these rulings not to be set in stone, and just how they are going to be ruled for this weekend.

Yes the card text looks different on those 3 monsters, but i remember Kevin posting a big article on how we shouldn't be analyzing card text.

Then again, a card with a ? should be able to change its original attack as it doesn't have one, but fusilier and behemoth do have printed attack values.

That was a wording mistake. They never should've said it was even special-summoned in the wording, because it wasn't.

What level was "BEWD" when it was discarded for "Double Attack"? It doesn't matter what the level is in the Graveyard, it only cares about what level it is when it's discarded from the hand.

Probably if it only said "send to the graveyard", things would be different.

makes me believe that the selected monster must be chosen before the cost is paid, to determine whether or not the cost is correct. At that time BEWD is still in the hand and contains a level of 6 stars.

Not necessarily. Since BEWD would be level 6 when the cost is paid, Double Attack would need a legal target. If there was none, you couldn't activate it. Besides, they never said you couldn't choose a different monster.

I realize the text of Double Attack places the cost before the selection, but how else can you determine whether the player activating Double Attack is discarding a monster for no effect?

If it's illegally activated, you get kara uchi.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Rai, I've been wondering. A lot of your posts that you have copy and pasted info into comes up as a bunch a squares. "可変機獣　ガンナードラゴン" for example. Is this a font I don't have downloaded or are you posting asian text that my browser isn't reading?

 

[novastar]

可変機獣　ガンナードラゴン
このカードは生け贄なしで通常召喚する事ができる。
その場合、このカードの元々の攻撃力・守備力は半分になる。

ワイトキング
このカードの元々の攻撃力は、自分の墓地に存在する「ワイトキング」「ワイト」の数×１０００ポイントの数 値になる。
このカードが戦闘によって破壊され墓地へ送られた時、
自分の墓地の「ワイトキング」または「ワイト」１体をゲームから除外する事で、このカードを特殊召喚する。

The JERP has 1400 as the base attack (if the effect came in) for Megamorph and Garzet, if that hurts any. Since January, actually.

It does hurt actually...

So is the JERP saying that Fusilier's Normal Summon original ATK/DEF is actually physically changes and effects like Megamorph will further modify it based on that?

 

[Raijinili]

It's Japanese.

And if I read the ruling correctly, yes.

 

[novastar]

I just did the rough translation, i'm being VERY picky here... I want to hear that the Original ATK is physically changed into a new Original ATK. There is no mention of Megamorph so it doesn't really help.

"Without sacrifice usually to summon it can do this card of variable machine animal ガンナードラゴン. In that case, originally attack power defense power of this card becomes half."

That looks more like the actual card text rather than a ruling.

The question here is, does Megamorph perform the same function as Fusilier's effect?

If it does, then you would simply use a straight Timestamp resolution to determine which one takes precendence.

If it doesn't, then you would simply use the Fusilier's effect as the Original ATK and modify that with Megamorph.

One or more of these rulings are incorrect for sure. We just need to find out which ones.

 

[Raijinili]

Er... it WAS the card text. I thought you wanted Wight King and Gunner Dragon texts.

「可変機獣　ガンナードラゴン」を生け贄なしで通常召喚し、
元々の攻守が半分になってる時に「巨大化」（カードに記載されている元々の攻撃力数値を倍・半分にする）を装備した場合、
生け贄なしで通常召喚した「可変機獣　ガンナードラゴン」は、カードに記載されている数値ではなく、
自身の効果で半分になった数値1400を元々の攻撃力として扱っている為、「巨大化」は攻1400を倍か半分にする。
（「偉大魔獣 ガーゼット」「収縮」等も同様）

That's the ruling.

And it may actually be a ruling EVOLUTION, I think. All the old Megamorph rulings may or may not be changed.

 

[Raijinili]

Wow, double-posting three times in twenty-four hours. This one is worth it, I promise.

I was looking and cross-referencing some rulings on the Official Japan site, and came across this on the JERP:
◇墓地に送ったモンスターの元々の攻撃力数値を適用する。
墓地送り前に装備カードなどで攻撃力が増減していても、アップ数値は含めない。
◇生け贄なしで召喚した、元々の攻撃力が１４００になっているガンナードラゴンを墓地に送った場合
墓地に置かれたガンナードラゴンの攻撃力数値２８００を、選択したモンスターに適用する。
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/puppiy/rule/rule4/TLM-JP039.htm

The first ruling says that Gift of the Martyr is based on the Base Attack of the monster, and the second ruling says that if Gift of the Martyr tributes Gunner Dragon, it will add 2800 and not 1400.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I have research the cards in the game that seems to modified the Original ATK in some way.

...
In any case this discussions for now is about how we will now resolve the many situations that can happened in a Duel. The most common will be VS any card that make reference to the Original ATK/DEF. Megamorph is the one that we have use the most, because of the ruling we already have.

But, What if we are discussing over nothing?, what if we are misunderstanding the phrase "the original ATK/DEF of this card become" as if this effect erase the card ATK "printed", so if that monster goes to the graveyard it should stay changed, for example in the case of Fusilier, if is destroyed the ATK will steal be 1400 when it goes to the graveyard because you used his effect, isn't? (I do know it has no sense). What if there are no way to change the original ATK/DEF, and this cards only refer to a simple way to calculate their ATK/DEF based on their effects?

I remember some one use the example of Cyber Harpie Lady, Harpie Lady 1, 2 and 3, as the first card that modified what's printed on the card, (A Legendary Ocean was actually the first one in that case) but my point here is that we are misunderstanding something here, Harpie Ladys, and A Legendary Ocean, does not change the physical structure of the card, this cards have only a continuous Effect that states that this cards are the same as using the one they referee to. But in the case of the cards that modified the original ATK/DEF, this is not the same.

...
So the Effect of Fusilier is just an Effect that can get RESET, and so the Original ATK that were halved was never ever even writhed on the card. (My head it's a mess right now.)

So you can see the inconsistancy in the rulings. But since I've been playing the game, Orginal ATK always meant printed ATK.

I remember a long time ago Base ATK used to also mean Original ATK and then somewher along the line that changed. Not really a big deal since thats just a choice of phrasing. But I'm thinking that maybe some of these cards were yet again translated badly.

 

[netwt]

I'm agree whit you, I use to remember the inconsistence in the rulings here in my community, we didn't know how to properly use Waboku, neither Ultimate Offering, I also remember we came whit the Idea of forbid the use of Ultimate Offering.
Gladly we met the Netrep community and star using their guide lines. But I believe some how we get lost some times, you know take for example this thread, Jack-Wyler came up whit a question that can easy be answer whit the rulings we already have. And all turn out in to a deep research of the rulings to re construct some of the ruling about what "the original ATK/DEF of this card become" really means, and how we should be ruling this for now on. I do appreciate that all this effort to clarify this ruling is helping us, but some times we lose perspective, don't you think?
I really think this all have an easy solution.
1. Any card that have the effect to modify the original ATK, only does it in when its effect get active (obviously).
2. When this modify happened is only to the purpose to calculate any Increases and Decreases or Doubles and Halves on the ATK(the become one)
3. But when other card (such as Megamorph) make a referents to the original ATK it does to the printed ATK. (In this case the helps not to change the ruling on Megamorph)
4. For other reasons the third point only should make an exception in the cases of monster that have a Question mark (?) over their ATK/DEF. This is for a simple reason, remember that there's a ruling that states that monster whit (?) in the ATK/DEF, can not be searched whit Sangan, Witch of the Black Forest, or Mystic Tomato, Giant Rat, etc., because this monster have a continuous effect that always recalculates their attack depending on the condition they have to full fit. So in the case of cards like Megamorph this one should take the original attack or defence as the calculated result.
4.a In other case should be stated that (?) mean 0, and this cards should be aloud to be searched by.
As I see there's no way to solve this problem whit out changing the rules we already have, but only for the case on "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman", the rulings:

"¢ The damage inflicted by the effect of "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" is based on the ATK of the destroyed monster in the Graveyard. So it's the original ATK of the monster.
"¢ If your "Elemental Hero Flame Wingman" destroys a "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" that was Summoned without Tribute, inflict 1400 damage to your opponent's Life Points.

Are a totally not sense contradiction. Which one is the legal one, my logic say is the first one. And the second one should be change because the original ATK when Fusilier is the graveyard is 2800.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I think it was John Danker who said that learning rulings for Yu-Gi-Oh! would one day end up just like the new tv series where you had to go to a university to know all the subtle nuances and inconsistancies in the game. This way you would just know what the rulings are, rather then being able to reason out what they are (which clearly doesn't work sometimes.)

I know some have said maybe its a new game function, but I'm thinking if it's a new game function then why post it without updating the rulings overall. I still think it's a error in wording.

 

[daivahataka]

Part of me worries about the possibility of actually meeting someone who has a say in these rulings, suspect I might suddenly find my hands all bloody and slippy with no memory of what just happened...
They really need to cop on and start saying what they mean on the cards, not just expect us to memorize thousands of rulings, a growing percentage of which go against the text of the cards involved.

 

[netwt]

Part of me worries about the possibility of actually meeting someone who has a say in these rulings, suspect I might suddenly find my hands all bloody and slippy with no memory of what just happened...
They really need to cop on and start saying what they mean on the cards, not just expect us to memorize thousands of rulings, a growing percentage of which go against the text of the cards involved.

You are right, it is really an inconsistent thing to do at this point of the game, for the companies that manage the TCG to put out an expansion, and not to clarify new playabilities, rules, and changes to previous rules. (Hei! Isn't this the reason Netrep born). But some how we also must understand that it is real people who creates the cards text, and the ones that states the official rulings. So, they may mistake in some ways, as we have seen in the past. Anyway something I really appreciate about the Forum is that we have the opportunity to give an opinion about the game, and its rulings, so we are not just simply taken anything for granted, we are intellectual people who concern about this game playability to ensure us hours of FUN, and not disagreements between duel to duel.

 

[squid]

Hours? I spend days, weeks, months, harping over rulings.... and card texts and strategies, but mainly rulings. I have so much fun giving myself a headache, I sometimes forget to build a deck.

 

[netwt]

Hours? I spend days, weeks, months, harping over rulings.... and card texts and strategies, but mainly rulings. I have so much fun giving myself a headache, I sometimes forget to build a deck.

Maybe we should have a Psychological help thread on this Forum. This headache seems very frequent this days.

 

[daivahataka]

You are right, it is really an inconsistent thing to do at this point of the game, for the companies that manage the TCG to put out an expansion, and not to clarify new playabilities, rules, and changes to previous rules. (Hei! Isn't this the reason Netrepâ„¢ born). But some how we also must understand that it is real people who creates the cards text, and the ones that states the official rulings. So, they may mistake in some ways, as we have seen in the past. Anyway something I really appreciate about the Forum is that we have the opportunity to give an opinion about the game, and its rulings, so we are not just simply taken anything for granted, we are intellectual people who concern about this game playability to ensure us hours of FUN, and not disagreements between duel to duel.

Which forum is this? Konami don't tend to browse any of these forums that I know of, UDE staff do; e.g. here we have Kenjiblade, Realms has Kevin, but UDE doesn't really have that much say in the game.
The problem's not so much that people make mistakes with the card text but rather that the Japanese creators & Konami are so stubborn when it comes to allowing the English text to be changed so that it actually means what it's supposed to as opposed to being a literal translation, Kevin has to fight tooth and nail for most erratas as I understand it when many of them are simple little things which should have been done before the card was even released in English.

 

[John Danker]

Maybe we should have a Psychological help thread on this Forum. This headache seems very frequent this days.

<laffin> A couple of years ago my wife was thumbing through the Univ. of Iowa newspaper. Believe it or not the Univ. of Iowa is known to be very open minded, multi-cultural, etc. etc. In the back pages it list self help groups, meetings and the like. She came across a support group for "Women who grew up Catholic" She laughed and commented that, "I didn't realize we are so messed up we need our own support group!"

Perhaps we're approaching this same level of insanity and abuse. Do we need to add an area here for "Yugioh rulings fanatics who's brains have sizzled to a crisp" ?

 

[Maruno]

Perhaps we're approaching this same level of insanity and abuse. Do we need to add an area here for "Yugioh rulings fanatics who's brains have sizzled to a crisp" ?

That area would get so much web traffic...

 

[netwt]

Which forum is this? Konami don't tend to browse any of these forums that I know of, UDE staff do; e.g. here we have Kenjiblade, Realms has Kevin, but UDE doesn't really have that much say in the game.
The problem's not so much that people make mistakes with the card text but rather that the Japanese creators & Konami are so stubborn when it comes to allowing the English text to be changed so that it actually means what it's supposed to as opposed to being a literal translation, Kevin has to fight tooth and nail for most erratas as I understand it when many of them are simple little things which should have been done before the card was even released in English.

So are we talking about the same thing? When I refer to our opinions I'm talking about us expressing, and making our words at list valuable for us, don't care if Konami give it self the opportunity to know if who play the game are actually living, and intellectual people. To me UDE have to much to say in the game actually because is the only company we have contact, and the fact that we have Kenjiblade and Kevin in the Forum can take our opinions to the company. Isn't UDE the one company that make the Rulings official for us? I don't know to much about the roles Konami, UDE, Empyre Grups, are playing for now in the TCG.

 

[netwt]

Perhaps we're approaching this same level of insanity and abuse. Do we need to add an area here for "Yugioh rulings fanatics who's brains have sizzled to a crisp" ?

Some times I believe we have, you know how many times you find your self worried because some one in the Forum has a disagreement in your opinion, or simple you don't know how to express your self. Or you are frustrated because "another because Konami say so". Well we can find so many examples that screw our minds.