Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast

J

Jack-Wyler

New Member
Hello all ,

I would like to know if Fusilier Dragon, The Dual-Mode Beast's original attack strengh was 1400 or 2800 when it is summoned without tribute .
Because my oppenent equipped it with Megamorph and said that its attack become 5600 because its original attack strengh was 2800 but however it is written on the card that THE ORIGINAL ATTACK would become halved when it is summoned without tribute

Can you help me ?

p.s: excuse my english , I am a French guy
 
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skey23 said:
Actually, both effects are 'identical'...lol. That's why it 'seems' to work and make sense...lol.

"Megamorph":
"While your Life Points are lower than your opponent's, double the original ATK of a monster equipped with this card. While your Life Points are higher, halve the original ATK."

"Karate Man":
"You can double the original ATK of this card once per turn."

Notice that BOTH state double the original ATK. Neither effects 'redefine' the value of the original ATK.

What is the original ATK of "Karate Man"? 1000.

1. So, if I use "Karate Man"s effect and double the original ATK, so his current ATK is 2000, then equip with "Megamorph" what will happen? Remember, his effect did not 'redefine' the original ATK of "Karate Man", it simply doubled it.

a.) If my LP are higher, then "Megamorph" will halve the original ATK, which is still 1000 DESPITE "Karate Man"s effect, so "Karate Man"s ATK will become 500.
b.) If my LP are lower, then "Megamorph" will double the original ATK, which is still 1000 DESPITE "Karate Man"s effect, so "Karate Man"s ATK will become 2000.

2. So, if I equip my "Karate Man" with "Megamorph" and..

a.) My LP are lower, then "Megamorph" will double the original ATK, and "Karate Man" will be at 2000 ATK. Now if for some reason I wish to use the effect of "Karate Man", then all his effect does is double the original ATK, which is still 1000 DESPITE "Megamorph"s effect, so he will stay at 2000 ATK.

b.) My LP are higher, then "Megamorph" will halve the original ATK, and "Karate Man" will be at 500 ATK. Now, if I wish to use "Karate Man"s effect, then it will double the original ATK, which is still 1000 DESPITE "Megamorph"s effect, so he will be boosted to 2000 ATK.
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I was refering to the differences between a modifier that mathematicaly alters the original ATK (Karate Man, Fusilier, the dual mode beast, Megamorph) and a modifier that simply stacks on to an existing modifier. (Axe of Despair, United We Stand, most equips.)

Check Nova's statement again and you'll see what I was refering to. :)
 
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Well, it seems I mis-read DJ's post and interpreted it incorrectly...crud. Well at least I had fun typing that nice long post out....for nothing! Nova is a better reader than I am apparently...lol.
 
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novastar said:
It may not be apparent with 1 Axe and 1 Megamorph.

If i added another Axe, United We Stand, and Mage Power you would see that Megamorph would always be calculated first, to create a baseline ATK. The rest of the 4 Equips would be added on in Timestamp order.

Understanding now?

Effects like Megamorph (which affect Original ATK) always create the baseline first from which the rest of the ATK modifiers get added on to.

EDIT: Wow... my 1000th post, i really gotta get a life...:p. Aren't you guys sick of me yet?
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Then to a degree the last modifier is taking precedence, with Megamorph recalulating the baseline.

But this still doesn't change my reaonings with FUsilier. His original ATK never changes and is calculatd accordingly.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
But this still doesn't change my reaonings with FUsilier. His original ATK never changes and is calculatd accordingly.
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But it DOES change, per it's effect when summoned/set w/o tribute.

It's effect 'redefines' the original ATK and sets it to 1400, then "Megamorph" would apply it's changes accordingly.

**NOTE** I am stating my opinioin in the matter here. Until we get any kind of 'official' response back, this is all speculation.***
 
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So does that mean Magemorph's are now culmulative?
...according to the TLM rulings Megamorph redifines the original attack, if it takes one original attack (A) to make another original attack (B) can the second Megamorph take original Attack (B) to get original attack (C) , or does Megamorph change the "Printed Attack" to get an Original Attack?
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
So does that mean Magemorph's are now culmulative?
...according to the TLM rulings Megamorph redifines the original attack, if it takes one original attack (A) to make another original attack (B) can the second Megamorph take original Attack (B) to get original attack (C) , or does Megamorph change the "Printed Attack" to get an Original Attack?
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No, they aren't cumulative and you know they aren't..;). And what TLM rulings states that "Megamorph" 'redefines' the original ATK?

Let's take "Gemini Elf" for example.

My LP are higher than my opponent's and I equip my "Gemini Elf" with "Megamorph".

Now, "Megamorph will either double the original ATK, or halve the original ATK, it does not 'redefine' the original ATK.

What's the original ATK of "Gemini Elf"? 1900.

So if I equip 1 "Megamorph", and my LP are higher, then "Gemini"s ATK goes up to 3800.
And if I equip a 2nd "Megamorph" to her, it won't make a difference because her ORIGINAL ATK never changed (1900), so the 2nd "Megamorph" would make her ATK 3800.
 
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skey23 said:
No, they aren't cumulative and you know they aren't..;). And what TLM rulings states that "Megamorph" 'redefines' the original ATK?
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  • Elemental Hero Thunder Giant - Fusion Monster Card
    ["Elemental Hero Sparkman" + "Elemental Hero Clayman"
    This monster cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon. Discard 1 card from your hand to select and destroy 1 face-up monster on the field with an original ATK that is less than the ATK of this card. You can only use this effect once per turn, during your Main Phase.]


    If a monster is equipped with "Megamorph" and its ATK is lower than that of "Elemental Hero Thunder Giant", and the effect is activated to destroy the equipped monster, but "Mystical Space Typhoon" is chained to destroy "Megamorph", so that the monster's original ATK is now higher than the ATK of "Elemental Hero Thunder Giant", the effect of "Elemental Hero Thunder Giant" Disappears and the monster is not destroyed.
That ruling demonstrates that Megamorph redefines Original attack, yes i know that there's a non-cumulative ruling published about Megamorph, but now i don't know what makes sense anymore.

And this might even mean that Cross Counter and Stone Statue of the Aztecs will be cumulative.
 
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Here's the TLM ruling that started this whole thing off (If I'm not mistaken):
"[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The original ATK of "King of the Skull Servants" is determined by its effect. This is further doubled/halved by "Megamorph" and other effects that are based off of original ATK. If the number of "Skull Servant" and "King of the Skull Servants" cards in your Graveyard changes, re-calculate the original ATK of "King of the Skull Servants", then re-apply the effect of "Megamorph"."

And the card text of "King of Skull Servants":
"[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The original ATK of this card becomes the number of "King of the Skull Servants" and "Skull Servant" cards in your Graveyard x 1000 points."

So, based on the FACT the card text states "The original ATK of this card becomes..." AND the ruling that states "[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The original ATK of "King of the Skull Servants" is determined by its effect."

That tells me right there the EFFECT of "King of Skull Servants" 'redefines" it's ORIGINAL ATK. The printed ATK of this card is a ? and is irrelevant at this point.


Now, let's look at "Fusilier", shall we...
"...[/font]the original ATK/DEF of this card become halved."

Again we see that phrase "the original ATK becomes..", so again that tells me that the EFFECT of that monster 'redefines' the original ATK and the printed ATK now means nothing to "Megamorph" or any other effect that looks at original ATK while the monster is on the field.


Does that make sense?
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:


  • Elemental Hero Thunder Giant - Fusion Monster Card

    ["Elemental Hero Sparkman" + "Elemental Hero Clayman"

    This monster cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon. Discard 1 card from your hand to select and destroy 1 face-up monster on the field with an original ATK that is less than the ATK of this card. You can only use this effect once per turn, during your Main Phase.]





    If a monster is equipped with "Megamorph" and its ATK is lower than that of "Elemental Hero Thunder Giant", and the effect is activated to destroy the equipped monster, but "Mystical Space Typhoon" is chained to destroy "Megamorph", so that the monster's original ATK is now higher than the ATK of "Elemental Hero Thunder Giant", the effect of "Elemental Hero Thunder Giant" Disappears and the monster is not destroyed.
That ruling demonstrates that Megamorph redefines Original attack, yes i know that there's a non-cumulative ruling published about Megamorph, but now i don't know what makes sense anymore.

And this might even mean that Cross Counter and Stone Statue of the Aztecs will be cumulative.
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Good catch there! I see that part in the card text of the "Tunder Giant" that states "with an original ATK that is less than the ATK of this card"....hmmm

Well that just causes even MORE issues now!....lol...
 
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skey23 said:
But it DOES change, per it's effect when summoned/set w/o tribute.

It's effect 'redefines' the original ATK and sets it to 1400, then "Megamorph" would apply it's changes accordingly.

**NOTE** I am stating my opinioin in the matter here. Until we get any kind of 'official' response back, this is all speculation.***
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I was refering to my line of Reasoning with Fusilier equipped with Megamorph. The ORIGINAL ATK never changes unless you scribble it out wiht a sharpie or something. :rolleyes: Fusilier's effect only modifies the ATK based on the printed ATK. But the prtinted ATK never changes which is all that Megamorph will look at.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
I was refering to my line of Reasoning with Fusilier equipped with Megamorph. The ORIGINAL ATK never changes unless you scribble it out wiht a sharpie or something. :rolleyes: Fusilier's effect only modifies the ATK based on the printed ATK. But the prtinted ATK never changes which is all that Megamorph will look at.
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But according to the "King of Skull Servants" ruling, that's NOT what "Megamorph" looks at...lol.

If that were the case, then when "King of Skull Servants" was equipped with "Megamorph", it's ATK would become 0, no matter how many qualifying cards were in the graveyard.
 
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The rulings and card text of these new sets are wrong, plain and simple. There is no way to rationalize them. Original ATK is unchanging. It's the printed ATK. This has to be yet another case of bad translating.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
So does that mean Magemorph's are now culmulative?
...according to the TLM rulings Megamorph redifines the original attack, if it takes one original attack (A) to make another original attack (B) can the second Megamorph take original Attack (B) to get original attack (C) , or does Megamorph change the "Printed Attack" to get an Original Attack?
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No, it creates a baseline "current ATK" from which all other ATK Modifier's work from.

Basically, Megamorph does not create a new "Original ATK" it just creates a starting point that will always be either half or double the Original (printed) ATK.

2 Megamorphs are not culmulative, as they are 2 indentical independant effects trying to modify the same object at the same time. You just use Timestamp resolution and the last MM activated is the one that is visable.

Ever wonder why they ruled that Limiter Removal "freezes" the new current ATK and makes it the baseline.

It is to make this dependancy situation simpler.
 
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novastar said:
Wow... my 1000th post, i really gotta get a life...:p. Aren't you guys sick of me yet?
Click to expand...

Never, sensei. Never!! Heck, I followed you here from Realms cause I dont get enough of you.

Will you sign my bicep?

Thigh?


Hello?
 
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Digital Jedi said:
The rulings and card text of these new sets are wrong, plain and simple. There is no way to rationalize them. Original ATK is unchanging. It's the printed ATK. This has to be yet another case of bad translating.
Click to expand...
OR, it's now a new clarification of things, or as stated previously, a new type of effect that does INDEED modify/'redefine' the original ATK/DEF of that monster.

Since there are now only 5 monsters that use the text "the original ATK/DEF becomes", or very similar, this could very well be the case.

"Fusilier"
"Behemoth Beast King"
"King of Skull Servants"
"Lost Guardian"
"Mega-Rock Dragon"


Just my thoughts on it!
 
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