ChaosMachine
New Member
If Jinzo is one of the monsters special summoned by return from the different dimension will he negate them being removed from play at the end of the turn?
Jinzo and RFTDD
- Thread starter ChaosMachine
- Start date
Complex_Mind said:
As the matter fact we have learned many things, yes you are correct, that everybody has their points of view, but they defend them in valid ways which open other peoples minds to analize from a much more closer point of view, expand their knowledge by placing other related rulings for a much wiser decision if any.
chaosruler
New Member
And for clarity, any monster special summoned via EITHER RftDD or Magical Scientist, if flipped face-down, remains on the field, it IS NOT returned to that from whence it came.
EDIT: Click the hyperlinks for each of these cards: Magical Scientist, Return from the Different Dimension. Both of these have rulings stating that monsters that are flipped face-down remain in play. Learn something? Heh, I thought so.
-chaosruler
EDIT: Click the hyperlinks for each of these cards: Magical Scientist, Return from the Different Dimension. Both of these have rulings stating that monsters that are flipped face-down remain in play. Learn something? Heh, I thought so.
-chaosruler
May I say something real quick? (Something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jinzo, RftDD, or Wildheart) Ok here goes:
When I first started reading through the posts on this sight, I was a horrible duelist. I had never even HEARD of things like priority, sub-steps, or any of that. I knew nothing of truly elaborate dueling.
But with months and months of reading every single post that came up with out fail and inferring as much I possible could from those posts, I have learned and nearly (emphasis on the word "nearly") mastered some of the most complex mechanics of the game. Or at least that's what I've been told.
I have no education in dueling from any other site or person. Everything I know about the game comes from these forums, in debates like this.
Are these debates stupid if they enlighten? Are they stupid if someone can leanr what's going on? Can something be stupid if stupidity is exactly the problem it resolves?
I think not. This debate has gone somewhere. It has gone a lit further than any message from UDE EVER has. It has clarified things, which is something UDE has not been known to do.
</rant>
...and in the interest of saying something even remotely on topic, "cheese!"
RftDD cannot remove a monster from play that has been flipped for the same reason that Limiter Removal can't destroy a flipped machine. It is a seperately resolving effect that not only occurs after the resolution of Limiter Removal, but also has NOTHING to do with said resolution.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one could even go so far as to say that these lingering states are not inter-dependent the way Book of Life's two effects are. So if a card that has multiple late-resolving effects cannot resolve one of them, it still resolves the others as much as possible. Last Turn + Jowgen the Spiritualist comes to mind.
-pssvr
When I first started reading through the posts on this sight, I was a horrible duelist. I had never even HEARD of things like priority, sub-steps, or any of that. I knew nothing of truly elaborate dueling.
But with months and months of reading every single post that came up with out fail and inferring as much I possible could from those posts, I have learned and nearly (emphasis on the word "nearly") mastered some of the most complex mechanics of the game. Or at least that's what I've been told.
I have no education in dueling from any other site or person. Everything I know about the game comes from these forums, in debates like this.
Are these debates stupid if they enlighten? Are they stupid if someone can leanr what's going on? Can something be stupid if stupidity is exactly the problem it resolves?
I think not. This debate has gone somewhere. It has gone a lit further than any message from UDE EVER has. It has clarified things, which is something UDE has not been known to do.
</rant>
...and in the interest of saying something even remotely on topic, "cheese!"
RftDD cannot remove a monster from play that has been flipped for the same reason that Limiter Removal can't destroy a flipped machine. It is a seperately resolving effect that not only occurs after the resolution of Limiter Removal, but also has NOTHING to do with said resolution.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one could even go so far as to say that these lingering states are not inter-dependent the way Book of Life's two effects are. So if a card that has multiple late-resolving effects cannot resolve one of them, it still resolves the others as much as possible. Last Turn + Jowgen the Spiritualist comes to mind.
-pssvr
In article I did for Last Turn, I addressed a term used in the rulings with regard to Last Turn's lingering effect. The rulings say that Last Turn's lingering effect "resolves" during the End Phase. I point out in the article not to let the use of the word "resolve" mislead you. Lingering effects do resolve, for lack of a better term, but the resolution has nothing to do with the intial resoluton of the card effect.
Pssvr has stated several times that lingering effects are not negated but prevented from resolving properly. Conditions can be akin to lingering effects if they require a linear process of executing, i.e resolving. They to can be prevented from proply doing what they are supposed to do.
Elemental Hero Wildheart is uneffected by both, as I see it.
Pssvr has stated several times that lingering effects are not negated but prevented from resolving properly. Conditions can be akin to lingering effects if they require a linear process of executing, i.e resolving. They to can be prevented from proply doing what they are supposed to do.
Elemental Hero Wildheart is uneffected by both, as I see it.
John Danker
Administrator
My friends and fellow CoG members, I can personally assure you that the mature and respectful debates (the other kinds we can do without) we have here are KEY to CoG being the respected site it is....I can also assure you that the depth of those debates have INDEED brought about rulings changes.
I've personally brought a number of topics up on the L3 judge's board or with UDE officials. A number of those topics that we've discussed have been brought before Konami and have either been changed or clarified.
Please trust me when I say I wouldn't begin to waste my time in such debates or discussions if I didn't think they would "matter" Personally I thought I'd seen every possible aspect of this debate....and then a couple of days later I contemplated a new possibility....and I'm sure there may be others.
There will be those who say that debate over something that hasn't been ruled on is a waste of time, that we should just wait for the ruling and that anything we state or discuss doesn't matter anyway. That may very well be true for some of those who's only interest is in PLAYING the game (though UNDERSTANDING the rulings WILL make you a much better PLAYER as well) but for those who JUDGE understanding, disecting, and proving the rulings right in their own mind is a key part of a knowledge base that will help them make correct rulings when their ARE no written rulings for other scenarios or cards.
I've personally brought a number of topics up on the L3 judge's board or with UDE officials. A number of those topics that we've discussed have been brought before Konami and have either been changed or clarified.
Please trust me when I say I wouldn't begin to waste my time in such debates or discussions if I didn't think they would "matter" Personally I thought I'd seen every possible aspect of this debate....and then a couple of days later I contemplated a new possibility....and I'm sure there may be others.
There will be those who say that debate over something that hasn't been ruled on is a waste of time, that we should just wait for the ruling and that anything we state or discuss doesn't matter anyway. That may very well be true for some of those who's only interest is in PLAYING the game (though UNDERSTANDING the rulings WILL make you a much better PLAYER as well) but for those who JUDGE understanding, disecting, and proving the rulings right in their own mind is a key part of a knowledge base that will help them make correct rulings when their ARE no written rulings for other scenarios or cards.
Dillie-O
Council of Heroes
Dude, how do you jump into my mind like that John! Good call! So can we ask how the discussions are going in the L3 list?
Any way you can send a holo projector attached to your Kozay hat so we can listen in on the discussions? Sorry, reading too much Star Wars this weekend. 8^D
Any way you can send a holo projector attached to your Kozay hat so we can listen in on the discussions? Sorry, reading too much Star Wars this weekend. 8^D
John Danker
Administrator
I'm sure it's imagined that the L3 judge's list is crawling with in depth discussion. Contrary to that it's actually not used nearly as much as you'd think. We're lucky to get a couple of posts a week on it. As we see more L3s enter the ranks we're getting a little bit more discussion there.
Usually when we do have a flurry of discussion it's trying to get an idea of how we'll rule on something until it's officially ruled on....when UDE doesn't know themselves until they meet with Konami....which happens every 3-6 months. In the mean time we have to have a "working" ruling and add that while we've made a ruling it may change in the future. Sometimes, we can't even agree on that <shrug> We debate there as well just like we do here.
We don't MAKE any rules there, we look to the standard judge's list for official rulings just like everyone else. I think there have (to the best of my recollection) only been 2-3 times when Dan or Kevin have answered something on the L3 list that hasn't made it's way to the standard judge's list first.
Usually when we do have a flurry of discussion it's trying to get an idea of how we'll rule on something until it's officially ruled on....when UDE doesn't know themselves until they meet with Konami....which happens every 3-6 months. In the mean time we have to have a "working" ruling and add that while we've made a ruling it may change in the future. Sometimes, we can't even agree on that <shrug> We debate there as well just like we do here.
We don't MAKE any rules there, we look to the standard judge's list for official rulings just like everyone else. I think there have (to the best of my recollection) only been 2-3 times when Dan or Kevin have answered something on the L3 list that hasn't made it's way to the standard judge's list first.
Dillie-O
Council of Heroes
Gotcha. Sounds interesting indeed. I noticed Gary Haynes posted his thoughts into the Realms thread on this topic too.. Its definitely been a nice learning experience. My guess is that once Konami gives us some info on things, there could be some interesting rulings changes going on 8^D
<off topic>
Gee... Well, I'd better make myself a LV3 so I can spam up your chat area...
</off topic>
I'm lost. What are we saying? It seems like the debate just kind of died down, without any definite conclusion. Is the general concensus that RftDD can SS Wildheart, but not RFP it?
-pssvr
Gee... Well, I'd better make myself a LV3 so I can spam up your chat area...
</off topic>
I'm lost. What are we saying? It seems like the debate just kind of died down, without any definite conclusion. Is the general concensus that RftDD can SS Wildheart, but not RFP it?
-pssvr
John Danker
Administrator
The ruling concerning Wildheart and Rffd is has already been made and is official....the question is WHY it's ruled that way and does it have ramifications on the Wildheart & [ycard="FET-EN052]Threatening Roar[/ycard] ruling which hasn't been made.
As for the ruling on Wildheart and [ycard="FET-EN052]Threatening Roar[/ycard] there is no general conclusion. There are still plenty of people on both sides of the fence.
As for the ruling on Wildheart and [ycard="FET-EN052]Threatening Roar[/ycard] there is no general conclusion. There are still plenty of people on both sides of the fence.
paulb91085
New Member
[ycard="FET-EN052]Threatening Roar[/ycard] doesn't target any monster follow the simlar ruling with to [ycard="SDJ-046]Waboku[/ycard] ( can still attack but doesn't kill monster unless it's D.D Warrior Lady) :icon_cry:
John Danker
Administrator
paulb91085 said:
The counter argument to that is that [ycard="SD1-EN014]Swords of Revealing Light[/ycard] doesn't target any monsters either and monsters that are uneffected by spell cards can still attack. We've been through that paticular argument ....but thank you for your input.
...and I still say (but when did I say it before?) that that is a rock-solid argument. [ycard="FET-EN052]Threatening Roar[/ycard] is a trap version of Swords. Both claim to prevent a player from attacking, yet it has been ruled that monsters attack, not players.John Danker said:
...is my theory...
-pssvr
I had brought out to the attention on another site, a similar text with a different effect, which was [ycard="SDY-041]Soul Exchange[/ycard], it also claims that the "player" is not able to conduct his/her battle phase, now why would monsters unaffected by spell cards unable to ignore this effect? and why would they be able to ignore TR then? if it also places a restriction to the player.
Phase vs Attack.slither said:
*changes his story*
I'm now on board with: Monsters attack, players conduct phases. [ycard="SDY-041]Soul Exchange[/ycard] prevents the battle phase, while [ycard="FET-EN052]Threatening Roar[/ycard] prevents an attack. Big difference.
-pssvr
That would markedly different. The Game is what is affected here, and not the player or the monster. Everyone and evrything must be able to enter each phase, regardless of who decides who enters that phase each turn. Without a Battle Phase there can be no attacks. If the game cannot progress into the battle phase due to the effect of a Spell Card, the a monster unafected by Spell Cards would still not be able to attack because the game never progresses to the only phase he is capable of attaking in.slither said:
John Danker
Administrator
It is interesting how after years of playing, judging, and studying this game we can still be defining basics isn't it? <soft chuckle>
No, no, am totally agreeing in the effect, and that they both have a different effect to what the card says, im just pointing out that cards can in fact affect players or the game, with this in mind it viable to say that players are the ones that declare an attack, but if a card is preventing a player from even declaring an attack, then is it not possible to assume that monsters can't override that effect.