Mobius, Scapegoat and Torrential Tribute

[Jack-Wyler]

I have 2 traps set on the field (Scapegoat and Torrential Tribute), my oppenent summons Mobius.
Could I activate Scapegoat and then Torrential Tribute to destroy Mobius and have token on the field ? Or might I activate Torrential at the exact trigger and so activating Scapegoat becomes useless because they would be destroy by the Torrential?

 

[ygo doc]

You can chain "Scapegoats" to "Mobius'" effect and then if your opponent does not respond, chain "Torrential Tribute".

The last action to resolve in the game state was the successful summoning of "Mobius", so your timing for "Torrential Tribute" is still correct.

Your chain sequence could be reversed, but you did it right and TT will resolve first, destroying "Mobius" and then "Scapegoats" will resolve leaving you 4 sheep tokens, then "Mobius'" effect resolves pretty much uselessly.

doc

 

[Digital Jedi]

In order for this to work for you, you need to chain your set cards in the correct order.

First off, when Mobius is summoned, and his effect triggers, his effect becomes the very first link on a chain that is activated in response to his summon. Anything placed on that chain is in response to that summon, so cards with the summon response timing (Torrential Tribute, Bottomless Trap Hole, Trap Hole, etc) can be properly activated and placed in this chain.

So you can chain Scapegoat and Torrential Tribute to each other in any order, and Torrential will not miss any timing. With that said, you clearly want tokens on the field after this chain resolves, so you would need to chain Scapegoat first, and Torrential second. The reason why is because the chain resolves backwards. Torrential would resolve first, wiping Mobius and everything else on the field clean. Then Scapegoat would resolve and summon you four tokens (this presuming, you had the spaces available when it was activated)

And as a additional note, Mobius would still resolve. Still destroy Scapegoat and Torrential. Because he doesn't need to stay on the field once his effect is placed on the chain, and Spell/Trap cards remain on the field until the chain fully resolves or their removed somehow. While still doesn't stop the two cards from going through, it's still good to know in.

 

[HorusMaster]

In order for this to work for you, you need to chain your set cards in the correct order.

First off, when Mobius is summoned, and his effect triggers, his effect becomes the very first link on a chain that is activated in response to his summon. Anything placed on that chain is in response to that summon, so cards with the summon response timing (Torrential Tribute, Bottomless Trap Hole, Trap Hole, etc) can be properly activated and placed in this chain.

So you can chain Scapegoat and Torrential Tribute to each other in any order, and Torrential will not miss any timing. With that said, you clearly want tokens on the field after this chain resolves, so you would need to chain Scapegoat first, and Torrential second. The reason why is because the chain resolves backwards. Torrential would resolve first, wiping Mobius and everything else on the field clean. Then Scapegoat would resolve and summon you four tokens (this presuming, you had the spaces available when it was activated)

And as a additional note, Mobius would still resolve. Still destroy Scapegoat and Torrential. Because he doesn't need to stay on the field once his effect is placed on the chain, and Spell/Trap cards remain on the field until the chain fully resolves or their removed somehow. While still doesn't stop the two cards from going through, it's still good to know in.

So you would be left with nothing on the field after Mobius' effect resolves at the end of the chain?

 

[skey23]

So you would be left with nothing on the field after Mobius' effect resolves at the end of the chain?

No. Re-read what DJ stated again. He gave you the correct chain and the explanation as to why..lol.

 

[Digital Jedi]

So you would be left with nothing on the field after Mobius' effect resolves at the end of the chain?

Nope. You'd be left with 4 Sheep Tokens. Chaining Torrential and Scapegoat the other way around would have resulted in nothing left on the field. But when you chain Scapegoat first, and Torrential second, Torrential resolves and destroys everything before the Sheep Tokens are ever Special Summoned.

 

[frostmonarch]

I am a bit lost here. I thought that Torrential Tribute needed to be chained to a summon (special or otherwise). If Mobius is summoned, then scapegoats is activated first, then Torrential is chained to that, wouldn't Torrential miss it's chance because of timing to get Mobius because it's not activated directly after Mobius is summoned. Wouldn't Torrential have to then react to the special summoning of the scapegoats thus destroying them as well? I thought that that was the whole point of Julia Hedberg's article about timing on Metagame.com.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Not at all. Timing has to do with responses more so then chains. Since you never, ever chain to a summon, only respond to one, the entire chain activated in response to a summon has that summon response timing. This is why you can chain three Bottomless Trap Holes to each other and none of them will miss their timing.

Torrential can exist anywhere on this chain and not miss it's timing at all. It's when this chain is allowed to resolve that the timing for responding to the summon is missed.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Besides, in this case the summon is responded to by Mobius's effect, Scapegoat is chained to Mobius' effect, then Torrential is chained to Scapegoat. The chain can continue until no one has anymore cards to chain and still the last thing to "resolve" was the summon of Mobius (a 12 card-chain ago).

 

[frostmonarch]

Yes. I can see that we do not chain to a summon, but if you chained a Bottomless to a Bottomless is the 2nd Bottomless still considered responding (not chaining to) a summon, or would that be considered chaining one Bottomless to the other, thus the last one would miss the timing? For the 2nd Bottomless, wouldn't the last thing to happen be the activation of the 1st Bottomless, thus making it fizzle? I thought that was what Julia was trying to convey in
her statement Below
"Here's the deal. Your opponent can only activate one of those cards when the last thing to happen was the summoning of a monster, right? Right! So take a moment to think this over. What can you do to prevent the last thing that happened in the game from being a special summon? You can chain the special summon effect to something else! How about Smashing Ground? Or your Nobleman of Crossout? First, activate an effect"”just about any effect will do, as long as it doesn't result in a summon"”and then chain your Return or Call. (Of course, your opponent has a chance to respond in between. This is very important, so don't forget it.) Your summoning effect will resolve first, followed by the first effect you activated"”which will be the last thing to happen, and therefore blocks Torrential Tribute or Bottomless Trap Hole. Oh, you are sneaky."

Sorry if I seem confused.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

No problem....The issue here is a special summon that is activated (not resolved) in a chain with another card, so that when you resolve inb reverse order, the special summon resolves (you get a monster), then the first card activated resloves. Here:

T(urn) P(layer): Activates Swords of Revealing Light. N(on) TP does not respond, TP chains previously set Call o' Haunted. NTP would like to chain his set Torrential but cannot as no monster has been summoned. No response chain=
Swords->Call, resolve in reverse order

Call special summons a monster (NTP cannot interupt chain ressolution here, so must wait) --> Swords flips NTP's face down monsters and begins stopping NTP's attacks.

Now, the last thing to occur/resolve was Swords...NOT the Special Summon, so the NTP CANNOT activate Torrential in response to it.

Does that help?

 

[frostmonarch]

Still a little confusing, but I think that I have it.

Thanks for the clarifications. I appreciate the info and insight.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Okay, within Yugioh, you have three main event-types: Action, Response/Activation, Chain.

An action is anything that occurs or resolves (often called "event"). These include, entering/exiting a phase, Normal summoning/setting, resolving an effect/chain. These cannot be chained to, but can be responded to by a monster effect or spell speed 2+ card. Note: The activation of a spell speed 1 spell card must be activated as its own event, not in response to an event.

If one responds to an event, anything spell speed 2 that can be chained to that activation can be in response to that event as well, but does not have to be. Moreover, even if a spell speed 2 effect is chained that cannot be in response to the event (a spell speed 2 effect to negate the just previous card in the chain, for instance), the next effect chained to it can still be in response to the last event. Spell speed 3 can only be activated to counter, therefore, after a spell speed 3 is activated, the next spell speed 3 MUST negate Only the just previous card chained and nothing earlier.

If it will help, I can draw out some senarios for you.

 

[frostmonarch]

That is perfectly clear. Your explanation is the best I have seen yet. Thank you for your time and efforts.

The only question that I have left is in response to the part about cards with Spell Speed Three. You mentioned that people can add continuosly onto a chain, but can they continue to add to a chain with anything else but a spell speed three card after one has been introduced into the chain. I thought that you could only respond to a spell speed three with a spell speed three. Am I also confused about this?
Thanks again.

 

[Digital Jedi]

"Here's the deal. Your opponent can only activate one of those cards when the last thing to happen was the summoning of a monster, right? Right! So take a moment to think this over. What can you do to prevent the last thing that happened in the game from being a special summon? You can chain the special summon effect to something else! How about Smashing Ground? Or your Nobleman of Crossout? First, activate an effect"”just about any effect will do, as long as it doesn't result in a summon"”and then chain your Return or Call. (Of course, your opponent has a chance to respond in between. This is very important, so don't forget it.) Your summoning effect will resolve first, followed by the first effect you activated"”which will be the last thing to happen, and therefore blocks Torrential Tribute or Bottomless Trap Hole[/color][/url]. Oh, you are sneaky."

Her article is dead on, and is in fact, not contradicting the response rules that I mentioned earlier. A resolving card is not an event that has completed yet. So when you activate an effect in response to a summon, no matter how many cards you add to that chain, none of them are completed events yet. They will only complete when they resolve. The last thing to have successfully occurred was a summon. So the chain links will not interrupt the timing for Torrential or Bottomless at all.

In Julia's example, you've activated a Spell Card and then chained Call. Call is going to resolve first and summon your monster. But the problem for your opponent is, we are still in the middle of a resolving chain. He can't activate Bottomless Trap Hole or Torrential tribute in response to this summon, because he cannot manually interrupt a chain with a new card effect. he has to wait for the chain to fully resolve before he can activate anything, and when that happens, the last thing to have successfully occurred was the resolution of a Normal Spell Card.

So you see, in the initial posters scenario the last thing to successfully happen was the Tribute Summon of Mobius. In Julia's example the last thing to happen was the resolution of a Normal Spell Card. Timing is inappropriate for Torrential in Julia's example, but not in Jack's

And your correct, only Spell Speed 3s can be chained to Spell Speed 3s.

 

[ygo doc]

...Spell speed 3 can only be activated to counter, therefore, after a spell speed 3 is activated, the next spell speed 3 MUST negate Only the just previous card chained and nothing earlier.

I have to disagree with your last statement here. Yes, only spell speed 3 effects can be chained to spell speed 3 effects, but the next spell speed 3 effect does NOT have to negate the previous card.

Ex 1:
TP declares a direct attack with "Mobius" against your lifepoints. You as NTP activate "Negate Attack". The TP can pay 1000 LP's and chain "Seven Tools of the Bandit" to negate your trap; however, you decide to chain a second "Negate Attack". No further chains; the attack is stopped. The second "Negate Attack" does not negate the card it is chained to. It is still legal to activate here because the last action to occur in the game state is the declaration of attack. Here's the ruling on the judge site to support this: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2322#2322.

Ex 2:
TP tribute summons "Mobius". NTP activates "Forced Back". TP pays 1000 LP's and chains "7 Tools" to negate "Forced Back". NTP tributes a "Treeborn Frog" and chains "Horn of Heaven". No further chains. The timing is still correct for "Horn of Heaven". HoH doesn't negate the previous counter trap, but it will negate the summon and destroy "Mobius".

The only rule I am aware of is that counter traps that negate card effects must be activated immediately after that effect is activated. So if TP plays "Smashing Ground" and NTP chains "Magic Jammer" and then TP chains "Solemn Judgment" to negate MJ, the NTP cannot activate a second "Magic Jammer" or a "Magic Drain" here to negate the original "Smashing Ground". The correct timing is now missed here.

doc

 

[Digital Jedi]

I believe the misconception that is ever prevalent even among judges is that Spell Speed 3 effects are exclusive negation abilities that must be chained to the effect they are negating. Conversely, it's often presumed that negation abilities that are not Counter Traps, are capable of being activated in the Damage Step be default of being a negation effect. Neither of which are exclusively true.

 

[skey23]

Here's the ruling on the judge site to support this: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2322#2322.

Ok, this ruling simply proves what DarkLogician stated and that "Negate Attack" is the one exception to the Counter Trap Rule. That rule is clearly stated in the post you linked to.

Ex 2:
TP tribute summons "Mobius". NTP activates "Forced Back". TP pays 1000 LP's and chains "7 Tools" to negate "Forced Back". NTP tributes a "Treeborn Frog" and chains "Horn of Heaven". No further chains. The timing is still correct for "Horn of Heaven". HoH doesn't negate the previous counter trap, but it will negate the summon and destroy "Mobius".

Ok, I don't understand this scenario. Are trying to say that you can chain "Horn of Heaven" to the "Seven Tools of the Bandit"? If so, then I'll need proof of this as it does not follow the 'rule' of the Counter Trap Card. Counter Trap Cards must be activated in direct response to the event/effect they are negating. The only card that doesn't follow this, as you so kindly pointed out, is "Negate Attack".

The only rule I am aware of is that counter traps that negate card effects must be activated immediately after that effect is activated.

Where did that come from? Again, can you post a link, or a ruling or something?

Thanks.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Rulebook:
Counter Traps:
"These traps are normally activated in response to the activation of other cards"

FAQ:
"The basic rule is that Counter Traps can only be used against the card they are immediately following in a chain."

If Horn of Heaven, Forced back can only be used against the card they are immediately following in a chain, then they must be used in a chain against that card.

Horn of Heaven, Forced back can be used in response to a an event, and can begin a chain. Which contradicts the FAQ rule, therefore proof by contradiction shows us that "Horn of Heaven and Forced back can be used against a card they don't immediately follow in a chain.

From there we raise a question "what can come between the card/event they are trying to negate and their activation"

The "norm" is that a card activation does not interrupt response timing, and further supported by the ruling of Negate Attack.

So from our rulings, Forced Back and Horn of Heaven can be activated as chain link 2 or 3 etc.. (and the burden of proof will fall on those who wish to claim otherwise)

 

[masterwoo0]

I have to disagree with your last statement here. Yes, only spell speed 3 effects can be chained to spell speed 3 effects, but the next spell speed 3 effect does NOT have to negate the previous card.

I think that you have a slight misinterpretation of the rule.

If you are trying to negate the effect of a Spell Speed 3 effect, you MUST chain directly to the card. If you are NOT trying to negate the effect, as long as the response is still the correct Spell Speed with correct timing, you can continue to add to the chain as nothing has resolved yet.