night assailant Q

[NLFW]

I know that if I flip summon a sangan and my opponent plays solemn judgement I cannot search the monster, even if it was set on the field before, it is considered sent to the graveyard from the hand...so if I flip night assailant and its summon is negated, can I get a flip effect monster from the Graveyard?

 

[Digital Jedi]

So you're in the living room. The you go to the bathroom.

Now while you're in the bathroom it ceases to ever have existed, and you find yourself outside of the house.

Did you go from the living room to outside? No,.
Did you go from the bathroom to outside? What is the bathroom? It never existed.

You're just outside.
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"¢ The effect of "Spell Absorption" is applied when the Spell Card is activated. You cannot chain to this effect. The effect is applied immediately. For example, when activating "Tribute to The Doomed" while "Spell Absorption" is on the field: (1) pay the cost by discarding a card, (2) activate "Tribute to The Doomed", (3) your Life Points increase for "Spell Absorption", (4) check for chaining and resolve "Tribute to The Doomed".

"¢ If the activation of a Spell Card is negated by "Magic Jammer", etc., then you will not gain Life Points for "Spell Absorption".

The problem there is that you cannot escape linear progression. You as the individual still went from one place to another, whether the other place ceased to exist or not, your path can still be mapped. The bathroom may have ceased to exist, but you did not. You went from being in the bathroom, to being outside. There is no sideways for a corporeal being. Even if I move the the shell I was in to another shell, I still track the movement of that shell in my mind.

Likewise a summon has to still register a linear progression. Erasing the place it has been doesn't erase the registration the game makes of it being there. The game keeps track of events. Even negated ones. Which is why where Sanagn and Night Assailant were before their summon is negated is relevent.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

You might remember what happened, but there is absolutely no way to "Tract" what happened, since all evidence of it ceased to exist.

Sure the player remembers taht s/he increased his life points by 500, but that doesn't matter.

Fire Princess is only concerned with Life Point changes that she can prove had happened.

And its the same with any other card.

No proof, no event.

Cards don't have memories.

 

[anthonyj]

So you're in the living room. The you go to the bathroom.

Now while you're in the bathroom it ceases to ever have existed, and you find yourself outside of the house.

Did you go from the living room to outside? No,.
Did you go from the bathroom to outside? What is the bathroom? It never existed.

You're just outside.
--------
"¢ The effect of "Spell Absorption" is applied when the Spell Card is activated. You cannot chain to this effect. The effect is applied immediately. For example, when activating "Tribute to The Doomed" while "Spell Absorption" is on the field: (1) pay the cost by discarding a card, (2) activate "Tribute to The Doomed", (3) your Life Points increase for "Spell Absorption", (4) check for chaining and resolve "Tribute to The Doomed".

"¢ If the activation of a Spell Card is negated by "Magic Jammer", etc., then you will not gain Life Points for "Spell Absorption".

But your scenario is asking if you go into a specific room in the house and that room Disappears then you aren't in that room. That assumes that there is another physical place that you are which is outside. So where is the third area in the summoning equation? Physically there is going to be a place that you are. If there are only two choices for physical location (barring the existence of a fourth dimensional space which we will refer to as the limbo zone ) then you must physically be in one or the other.

If you walk from outside the house (in the hand) into the house (on the field) and the house Disappears where are you? Outside!

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

You almost have, except that

outside = graveyard in my example.

 

[anthonyj]

You almost have, except that

outside = graveyard in my example.

So where were you before you were in the graveyard? In the room that subsequently Disappeared. Doesn't that state that even if you didn't have to travel anywhere in order to get there that you were someplace else before?

-Edit- if the bathroom never existed then the last place you were before you were outside was in the living room.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

So where were you before you were in the graveyard? In the room that subsequently Disappeared. Doesn't that state that even if you didn't have to travel anywhere in order to get there that you were someplace else before?

-Edit- if the bathroom never existed then the last place you were before you were outside was in the living room.

Yes, but the cards don't care about the last place they existed.

If they don't know how they got from point A to point B than they're jsut at point B and that's enough.

They didn't go from one place to another.

 

[John Danker]

<QUOTE>

So you're in the living room. The you go to the bathroom.

Now while you're in the bathroom it ceases to ever have existed, and you find yourself outside of the house.

Did you go from the living room to outside? No,.
Did you go from the bathroom to outside? What is the bathroom? It never existed

<End Quote>

This kind of theory is all well and good, and it might even fly with a few here and there....but we have a MUCH larger problem.

The problem is that this game is geared toward those 20 or so and under. It's marketed to those 13 and under. We as judges, demo team leaders, T.O.s, player management specialist, etc. shouldn't have to go into quantum physics to explain to a 8 year old why his Sangan didn't get it's effect. This game is complicated enough to keep track of the rules without having such theories.

Bottomline here is it's a game fluke....and there is no explination that's logical and within reason to explain to the people that the game is marketed to....thats a problem no matter how you try to justify this scenario.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

But children have better imaginations.

Its adult bias that says the card has to be "sent" somewhere.

As soon as a child has reached the stage to account for things s/he doesdn't see, a child would be able to grasp unphysical concepts.

Children have no trouble believing things that are not possible in 3-dimensions universe.

 

[masterwoo0]

Its not adult bias. You still have card effects that must track how they got to where they are, from where they went.

There is nothing in the game that implies metaphysics. A card either is in hand, field, Deck, or Graveyard. There has never existed a "inbetween" area. You cannot rule that a card is inbetween as there is no precedence. Nor, is there anything similar to a "inbetween" area.

If we cant even define where the removed from play cards are in respect to the playing area, how do you define something that does not exist at all?

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Its not adult bias. You still have card effects that must track how they got to where they are, from where they went.

So then how do cards get in the deck in the first place?

There is nothing in the game that implies metaphysics.

So you think spells are real? Summoning a monster is real? Events as the result of tributing things are real?

Please, the whole game is imaginary.

But, remember, limits are assumptions, and naturally biased.

A card either is in hand, field, Deck, or Graveyard. There has never existed a "inbetween" area. You cannot rule that a card is inbetween as there is no precedence. Nor, is there anything similar to a "inbetween" area.

I never said there was an inbetween area.

If we cant even define where the removed from play cards are in respect to the playing area, how do you define something that does not exist at all?

Bingo.

The cards don't get their effects because there is no way to define what happened

 

[masterwoo0]

So then how do cards get in the deck in the first place?

Because, even though it may be small and mostly ignored, the Rule Book does state that you must build a minimum 40 Card Deck, that's how.

Buy it, trade it, find it, build it, but all according to "Rules".

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Because, even though it may be small and mostly ignored, the Rule Book does state that you must build a minimum 40 Card Deck, that's how.

Buy it, trade it, find it, build it, but all according to "Rules".

Where does it say buy, trade or find in the rule book?

I mean does it say exactly how to build it, exaclty how the cards move into the deck?

You just start the game, you have a deck there is no questions asked.

And it can be the same for any other area on the deck.

This is also true in many games, including sports.

Once the puck/ball is in the net, then it is now at center/ice or field.

It doesn't have to cross any lines to get there, or move across the field.

Or like in yugioh when you start a new game.

The cards weren't sent from the graveyard to the deck. They aren't sent from the field to the deck etc.

They are in the deck now and that is that.

There are no questions about how it got there.

 

[masterwoo0]

I didnt say all that other stuff was in the Rule Book. I said you get the cards and Build a Deck according to the Rule Book, and before the game starts, it doesnt matter where the cards came from. They very well could fall from the sky, but that isnt a concern of the Game (as long as the Deck is legally built). Only what happens when you place your Deck on the field to start playing and the actual Match begins, does it matter.

Anyway, this isnt a Philosophy Quiz. It's a game that should be able to be played without a Doctorate Degree or trying to figure out if matter is transferable. No one is going to win a Nobel Prize from coming up with the most reasonable answer to where a monster is sent from when it is negated, but I'm sure the most ridiculous one will garner quite a few laughs along the way.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Anyway, this isnt a Philosophy Quiz. It's a game that should be able to be played without a Doctorate Degree or trying to figure out if matter is transferable. No one is going to win a Nobel Prize from coming up with the most reasonable answer to where a monster is sent from when it is negated, but I'm sure the most ridiculous one will garner quite a few laughs along the way.

It's only complicated when you make assumptions.

Its simple logic when something never existed that there's no evidence of it existing, and thus no conclusion of anything that happened in the past.

A card that can negate something that already happens erases part of the game.

Its as simple as knowing the difference between the word "erase" and the word "rewind."

 

[Kyhotae]

Kyhotae- You seem to have a firm conviction that you understand the game and mechanics yet you keep getting proven wrong again and again. I would make a suggestion that before you enter every single thread with a loud pronouncement that everybody else is wrong you might try an experiment. Write out a basic guideline of how to play the game. Go into as much detail on game mechanics as you can and post it here to get critique on how well it covers things. If you don't get written documentable proof that more than 50% of what you write down is absolutely irrefutably in error and in need of being corrected I will be shocked and amazed.

There are many great resources for reading up on the game mechanics of this game. You really should consider reading some of them.

Condescending much?!

Well, you know what you can do with your opinion. Attacking my ability to understand the game mechanics isn't exactly fair, when A. I'm new here and B. you guys over analyze everything so much that it's difficult for my to keep up with what exactly you're talking about.

I know the game. I can read effects and I can read rulings and I can apply them to the game. The stuff you guys usually talk about is completely inconsequential to how the game is actually played. You enjoy delving into the dimensions of the game play and coming up with unnecessary explanations for why cards do what they do. This discussion is a prime example. Whether or not they give a name to the place a monster is whose summon is negated by "Solemn Judgment" before it goes to the Graveyard, the card is STILL not considered to be on the field or in the hand. Where it is is irrelevant. It doesn't change the way the cards in question are played one iota.

Oh as for "proof," skey was nice enough to post it for me and it was alluded to several times before I posted. This place that supposedly doesn't exist because there's "no precedent" has been defined by UDE/Konami as "not on the field and not in the hand." Sounds like "precedent" to me. That's all you need to know to figure out how to deal with the effects that could interact with it.

Now please get over yourself.

 

[masterwoo0]

It's only complicated when you make assumptions.

Its simple logic when something never existed that there's no evidence of it existing, and thus no conclusion of anything that happened in the past.

A card that can negate something that already happens erases part of the game.

Its as simple as knowing the difference between the word "erase" and the word "rewind."

And then it goes back around in a circle as to why you can't perform another summon if your Normal Summon was erased?

"Because the game doesnt forget..."

"Well, if the game doesnt forget, then how does the event get erased...?"

"???"

 

[masterwoo0]

This place that supposedly doesn't exist because there's "no precedent" has been defined by UDE/Konami as "not on the field and not in the hand." Sounds like "precedent" to me. That's all you need to know to figure out how to deal with the effects that could interact with it.

That sounds suspiciously like my earlier statement that a summon negated from the field was negated with the basis that it was never on the field, and cannot be considered to have been sent from hand because a summon "was" attempted.

It's easier to believe than a story about 4 dimensions....

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

And then it goes back around in a circle as to why you can't perform another summon if your Normal Summon was erased?

"Because the game doesnt forget..."

"Well, if the game doesnt forget, then how does the event get erased...?"

"???"

You can answer the question yourself, in fact that question is already answered officially.

 

[Kyhotae]

That sounds suspiciously like my earlier statement that a summon negated from the field was negated with the basis that it was never on the field, and cannot be considered to have been sent from hand because a summon "was" attempted.

It's easier to believe than a story about 4 dimensions....

This is what I'm talking about. You say it your way, I say it mine. BOTH ways of saying it means that the card is played the EXACT SAME WAY.

So what's the discussion for? You're not going to change the way the card is played.

 

[masterwoo0]

You can answer the question yourself, in fact that question is already answered officially.

I could be wrong, and it wouldnt be a first, but I don't really remember the secret "left, right, up, left, left" ruling that said the game erased the summon as being "officially ruled".

This is what I'm talking about. You say it your way, I say it mine. BOTH ways of saying it means that the card is played the EXACT SAME WAY.

So what's the discussion for? You're not going to change the way the card is played.

Of course not. No one here believes that Night Assailant was sent from hand to the Graveyard (I hope...), but if it would be possible, then it's worth discussing.