Oooh... Here's an interesting question...

J

Jason_C

Banned
This one just occurred to me as a result of the thread about threatening roar, where cropz pointed out that you can activate it when the opponent intends to exit Main Phase 1. Here's my question:

What is the exact timing window for determining if a Battle Phase will be conducted or not?

Example:

Enter Main Phase 1, P1 elects to kick it off by summoning Gemini Elf.

Response window, both players pass.

Non-responsive window, P1 passes, AKA declares his wish to exit Main Phase 1. At this point, does he say if he intends to conduct a Batte Phase? Or does he wait until AFTER P2 has passed, where an infinitessimal timing window occurs to determine if there will be a Battle Phase?

And, if it is the former and not the latter, let's suppose the opponent did NOT pass. Let's suppose he activated something that CHANGED P1'S MIND about whether he wants a Battle Phase. Now what? Do we resolve the current chain, have another opportunity for response, and then repeat the process? Or is he bound to the decision previously made?

I'm inclined to believe an infinitessimal window occurs for this decision, to prevent the arguments that may occur if it were not for this window. But I wouldn't know.
 
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These are the choices that are affected by Turn Player's decision.
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Switch that sentence around a little bit :p

See, I get what you're saying, and it all makes perfect sence to me. But then, so does what novastar said. That's why I created this thread: I can see logic in BOTH sides of the argument. Basically, I ***THINK*** (<<----Emphasis on the word "think") that it comes down to: What evidence is there for each side? Because, by my thought process, there is no extrapolation or logical maneuver that can determine who is correct here. So do you have any rulings to back what you've said up, or is it just your opinion and the way you see the game? Same with novastar.

Hands... hurt... ow... *goes to soak hands* pain...
 
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I dont really have an ruling, but I dont feel as though there should be one. There are only 4 "Semi-Mandatory Phases" that you must enter, unless they are negated by effect.

Draw Phase (must be entered or negated)
Standby Phase (no effects need be activated or resolved unless mandatory)
Main Phase 1 (must be entered or negated)
End Phase of turn. (must be entered or negated)


Since there really are only 3 phases that follow any order, there really isnt much the Turn Player can do once he decides he wants to end the Draw Phase thru Main Phase, but the Battle Phase and Main Phase 2 are optional, so that would mean that there should be no direct decision point after Main Phase 1 has ended.

You either go to Battle Phase, or End Phase of the turn, which, in the earlier scenario I gave, affects the outcome of the rest of the turn.
 
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Wow, now I'm completely lost. I thought you were saying that, after it has been established that the Main Phase will end, then there IS a decision point, represented in your diagram by the word "STOP". Now you're saying that there is "no direct decision point"?? Forgive me, but I don't get it at all. :(

The way I see it, a decision must be made. Either there will be a BP, or there won't. And that decision must have a certain time when it is made, because YGO follows a direct, event-driven order. The question then becomes: WHAT is the timing for that decision? I believe novastar is saying it occurs at the time the wish to end MP is declared, while I THOUGHT you were saying it occurs after MP has ended. But now, I'm just confused.

I really ought to stop typing, but this debate is addictive.

*continues typing for no reason* Pie is good.
 
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The reason I said "STOP" is because you shouldnt have to make an immediate decision once you reach an optional Phase at the end of a previous Phase.

I gave examples of why, because your decision can affect a great number of events

Helpoemer
Berserk Gorilla


These two monsters will cause the turn player to possibly lose a monster in the Battle Phase, or, lose a card in hand, and maybe both.

That alone should mean that there should be a natural "pause" in the game, in order to properly determine which direction you, as the "Turn Player" wish to go, since it would not necessarily be stalling, as again, your actions will determine a great number of determined outcomes,

BATTLE PHASE
Helpoemer WILL cause a discard unless negated.
Berserk Gorilla MUST attack, unless negated or attack prevented.

NO BATTLE PHASE
Both players proceed to End Phase of turn, and may activate or resolve effects as Appropriate.

You have a direct decision to make, "this or that", but not necessarily because the game says "CHOOSE NOW", but because you have only 2 ways you can go.
 
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Wait . . . So you DO agree with the theory of the infinitessimal "window" that exists solely for the purpose of determining the next phase, and nothing else can occur during that window?
 
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Okay... Now I get what you are saying.

Yes. I agree. I thought you were saying that there was still a window for the opponent to somehow slide in if the Turn Player took too long in deciding.

Okay. This just shows that intelligent debate can produce a reasonable outcome.
 
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At the end of the day...this applies to the MP1 only.

The decision to call for the end of the Phase must also be accompanied by the decision of where the TP wishes to go.
 
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This is verbatim from the Version 5 Rule Book

"At the end of Main Phase 1, you can choose to enter the Battle Phase or proceed to the End Phase (the starting player cannot conduct a Battle Phase in their first turn)."

Now, reading that statement, one would have to say that without a doubt, both players have already aGreed to end Main Phase 1, having completed all actions and chains. Now, the Turn Player can make a decision on where to proceed.

I don't see how you can say that you must end Main Phase 1 "by" declaring you are entering your Battle Phase or going to End Phase.

That would be like saying that after you Battle a monster, you must make a decision to attack again with another monster at the end of the Damage Step.
 
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No you choose what you want to do....if the opponent agrees you resolve end of Phase effects...then you proceed.

Don't care what UDE says...

I stand firm

That would be like saying that after you Battle a monster, you must make a decision to attack again with another monster at the end of the Damage Step.
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Yes, it means that you must make a choice....attack again ...or proceed to end.
 
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If you're ending your Main Phase 1 and entering your End Phase, you can't go back to your Main Phase 1.

I don't really see the conflict in all of this, or maybe there is none, I did not feel like reading 2 pages of people repeating themselves.

Turn player ends his Main Phase 1. Leaving him no choice but to enter his End Phase.

Non-turn player responds to the change of phases with Dust Tornado on the just set spell or trap card on the field.

Turn player cannot return to the Main Phase 1 to set another card.

When you say you do not enter your Battle Phase, and that you're not continuing your Main Phase 1.

UDE has not established replays outside of Battle Phase play.
 
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novastar said:
No you choose what you want to do....if the opponent agrees you resolve end of Phase effects...then you proceed.

Don't care what UDE says...

I stand firm

Yes, it means that you must make a choice....attack again ...or proceed to end.
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I actually meant before you ended the Damage Step.
 
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Complex_Mind said:
I don't really see the conflict in all of this, or maybe there is none, I did not feel like reading 2 pages of people repeating themselves.
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Well, it might have helped with your argument because I think you missed that heart of what we are talking about, like I initially did.
 
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So, is it aGreed that the decision of the TP about for wich phase he will move occours in a kind of "parallel non phase window" after a phase is completely ended (both agreeing), right?

Wait... thinking a little more, it seems more accurate to say that the decision was already made (inside TP brain, lol), and TP would, at this time, only be telling his opponent in which phase of his turn they are. Sounds reasonable?

Well...
 
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I did not feel like reading 2 pages of people repeating themselves.
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Your statement offends me.

Don't participate in an argument if you don't want to hear your opponent's side of the story. Participation is a mutual thing. For example, after I read that statement, I didn't even bother to read the rest of your post. I assumed it would be pointless, just like you assumed everything I posted was pointless. As my first grade teacher always said: There's a reason why God gave you 2 ears, 2 eyes, and only 1 mouth.

So, is it aGreed that the decision of the TP about for wich phase he will move occours in a kind of "parallel non phase window" after a phase is completely ended (both agreeing), right?
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I believe that is sorta-kinda what master and I are saying. Novastar disagrees, and this discussion is so vague, we can't really prove one way or the other. Where is Danker?

Wait... thinking a little more, it seems more accurate to say that the decision was already made (inside TP brain, lol), and TP would, at this time, only be telling his opponent in which phase of his turn they are. Sounds reasonable?
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Well, you could pretty much say that about ANY decision. But it still has to have definite timing on when it's made official.
 
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I understand. So Nova's point is that when TP announces he would like to end MP1, for example, he must imediately tell NTP he intend to go BP or EP (what means he is passing), and NTP can respond activating something, then TP can chain etc. After this chain resolves, TP has to declare again: I want to end MP1. Then opponent can respond...
And this process repeat until both agree ending the phase... But TP can change his decision in every window, depending on what NTP did. Is this right?
Or once the decision was made by TP he cannot change it anymore (and then there is a significant diference between this 2 ways of deciding wich is the next phase)?
 
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I believe this is to vague of a concept, I mean (I did say this earlier), if I chose to End my MP1, ask my opponent is it ok, he agrees that we can go on, I would need to immediately decide what Phase am I going to procede to.

If there is an existance of any "window" in this time, my opponent could very well activate Threatning Roar in fear of an attack. Making the hole "window" choice a gamebreaker.
 
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The transition of Main Phase 1 to Battle Phase with the opponent responding with Threatening Roar would initate that cards' activation location in the Start Step of the Battle Phase, which would result in the entire phase ending immediately. The Battle Step is where the player declares monster attacks. As we've read that if you respond to a monster attacking with Threatening Roar, the monster that already has its' attack declared will go through with its' attack.

So what's with this whole argument over both players agreeing that the game phase is ending? It would seem you guys are arguing whether or not a player has a response point at the end of a game phase.

Either I'm too mentally exhausted or something, but the transition of Main Phase 1 to another phase has only one of two options. Battle Phase or End Phase. So why exactly do we have an argument over response points that a player has at the end of a game phase?

I would think that if a card has an effect to resolve at the end of a game phase then a chain block could be created. I don't really believe that a response window exists at the end of game phases and steps.

There's a long list of these kind of effects and the search I did in Netrep's database was in card text. Use "end of the Battle Phase" for your search quiery. =)

Blah too tired to continue, but have fun you guys. <laughs> @_@
 
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