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FiendMaster

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What if I have a monster card says, "black luster soldier - envoy of the beginning" in the graveyard and my opponent call " black luster soldier". Can I say that its the wrong monster and special summon BLS-envoy to the field (assume he was summoned properly in the beginning)

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ok, I think have an answer now. when resolving Question's effect. your opponent must name the name PRINTED on the card, NOT what it should be or was and that include "misprint" and "this card is treated as". all Question care about it the name PRINTED on the card. and it ask your opponent to call the name of the name printed on the card, nothing else matter.

If you or the judge allow your opponent to assume what the card should be ie. luster dragon #2 should be luster dragon because misprint. this is an assumption and it should not be allowed, just like how a judge cannot answer hypothetical question. because this can change the whole game.

imagine, you and your opponent need to win this match to make it to top 8 of SJC and a chance to win cyber stein which worth $1000. are you gonna let that $1000 prize card pass you by, hell no! if you and your opponent both have 100lp left and both of you are top decking, your last draw is Question and you need Luster Dragon #2 ( the 2400 atk) from your graveyard to kill his Mad Dog to win the match or otherwise in the next turn he'll use his Mad Dog to finish you off and your opponent calls luster dragon (the 1900 atk)...would you allow that??

now this is why I say technicality count or saying partial name of a monster is wrong...

imagine yourself playing against a newbie who has never seen a black luster soldier - envoy of the beginning but he has seen a ritual black luster soldier and never new they are two different card and since he's also a newbie, he didn't know that there was a misprint of luster dragon and that harpie lady 2, 3 and whatever are treated as harpie lady. or that sasuke samurai, 2, 3 and 4 are all different card.

and imagine you're losing to this newbie and you need your BLS-oftb back to win the game and mr. newbie says I called Black luster soldier. If you let him slide, you know what he's gonna think? he's gonna keep thinking that BLS-oftb is the same as BLS the ritual and someone that was watching the duel gonna whisper to the other player.. "dude, i can't believe that guy is so stupid he just let that newbie win the match" hahahahaha....or worst, everyone's gonna think that all cards are the same now even thought they are different by numbers.

Now as for name pronouciation, I guess we can let that slide by. imagine a US player vs a Jap player in the World Championship and the Jap player plays only Japanese monsters with japanese name but of course the writing is in English. ie., Tsukuyomi,. imagine the US player says "Tokyomi" ? LOL hahahah or the Jap player who's so bad at English accidently call luster dragon Muster Dragoon. but we all know what they meant to say, then again, this contradict with the rule that you cannot assume or make assumption.
 
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Of course he couldn't call A Legendary Ocean or Umi because Question requires your opponent to call the name of the first MONSTER at the bottom of your Graveyard. LOL Of course I know that you guys are trying to say. Personally I dont think it should matter for cards whos name is treated as "other", guessing either name should be considered correct, because both names are correct. Sasuke Samurai's on the other hand should matter.

Honestly, what's wrong with saying the name has to be specificly called correctly? Is it any more unfair than Call of the Haunted or Premature Burial? Shouldn't the card at least be allowed to stand of chance of benefitting the controler?
 
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FiendMaster said:
ok, I think have an answer now. when resolving Question's effect. your opponent must name the name PRINTED on the card, NOT what it should be or was and that include "misprint" and "this card is treated as". all Question care about it the name PRINTED on the card. and it ask your opponent to call the name of the name printed on the card, nothing else matter.

If you or the judge allow your opponent to assume what the card should be ie. Luster Dragon #2 should be Luster Dragon because misprint. this is an assumption and it should not be allowed, just like how a judge cannot answer hypothetical question. because this can change the whole game.

imagine, you and your opponent need to win this match to make it to top 8 of SJC and a chance to win cyber stein which worth $1000. are you gonna let that $1000 prize card pass you by, hell no! if you and your opponent both have 100lp left and both of you are top decking, your last draw is Question and you need Luster Dragon #2 ( the 2400 atk) from your graveyard to kill his Mad Dog to win the match or otherwise in the next turn he'll use his Mad Dog to finish you off and your opponent calls Luster Dragon (the 1900 atk)...would you allow that??

now this is why I say technicality count or saying partial name of a monster is wrong...

imagine yourself playing against a newbie who has never seen a Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning but he has seen a ritual Black Luster Soldier and never new they are two different card and since he's also a newbie, he didn't know that there was a misprint of Luster Dragon and that Harpie Lady 2, 3 and whatever are treated as Harpie Lady. or that Sasuke Samurai, 2, 3 and 4 are all different card.

and imagine you're losing to this newbie and you need your BLS-oftb back to win the game and mr. newbie says I called Black Luster Soldier. If you let him slide, you know what he's gonna think? he's gonna keep thinking that BLS-oftb is the same as BLS the ritual and someone that was watching the duel gonna whisper to the other player.. "dude, i can't believe that guy is so stupid he just let that newbie win the match" hahahahaha....or worst, everyone's gonna think that all cards are the same now even thought they are different by numbers.

Now as for name pronouciation, I guess we can let that slide by. imagine a US player vs a Jap player in the World Championship and the Jap player plays only Japanese monsters with japanese name but of course the writing is in English. ie., Tsukuyomi,. imagine the US player says "Tokyomi" ? LOL hahahah or the Jap player who's so bad at English accidently call Luster Dragon Muster Dragoon. but we all know what they meant to say, then again, this contradict with the rule that you cannot assume or make assumption.
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First of all, "Jap" is an offensive term.

Second, a person in a high ranking tournament should know the cards better, and a judge rules more harshly. So just because you want to win, you'll insist that a kid half your age needs to give the exact name of the card? What, will you insist that he named the card wrong because he said "deedeeless" instead of "Day-da-lus"? For shame.

If you REALLY cared about the player not making the mistake again, which I really doubt, you can tell them not to do it again.

What, if the judges believed a ruling that would benefit your deck, you wouldn't say anything? For shame. Learn a little honor.
 
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You see my point from earlier in the thread? Do you see how quickly this card causes problems, arguements, debate, and turmoil?

Do yourself a favor folks, as soon as the card is activated call a judge over as a witness and let them listen to the naming of the card and let that judge be on the spot and make the call, otherwise you're asking for problems.
 
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The first time in history, I actually agree with Raijinili here, for the most part.

Dude, if your opponent is to call Black Luster Soldier, you kno there opponent's intention is to call Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning. So try not to get too technical here. Lets try being honorable here.

I mean, who plays Black Luster Soldier?

As for the Sasuke Samurai, 2, 3, 4, you should be able to tell the difference.
 
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The "Black Luster Soldier" / "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning" is something I disagree with. I can make allowances for bad pronunciation (sp?) or if the person doesn't quite know the name but is able to identify the card through some other means (the 2400 Luster Dragon, the Sasuke Samurai that makes you draw cards), etc. But (and this isn't an honor question here), simply calling "Black Luster Soldier" when you mean "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning" is not something I would accept. Few people may run the Ritual card, but that doesn't mean NOBODY runs it and to start making an exception like that well... next time the player will know better to clarify the card he meant with either the correct name or some other identifier (the BLS that can attack twice).

As for if you're playing someone in the worlds and this occurs... call the judge over. After all... we may know what the card is if they say "Chaos Soldier - Messenger of Creation" or "XENO" but some players may not.

Then again, the majority of the debate is mostly speculative anyway. But as far as judging it, I can go with the "spirit" of card when someone tries to name it but thanks to the translators, we here in the UDE territories need to be more aware of answering the "Question" in order to NOT have a problem.
 
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Raijinili said:
First of all, "Jap" is an offensive term.

Second, a person in a high ranking tournament should know the cards better, and a judge rules more harshly. So just because you want to win, you'll insist that a kid half your age needs to give the exact name of the card? What, will you insist that he named the card wrong because he said "deedeeless" instead of "Day-da-lus"? For shame.

If you REALLY cared about the player not making the mistake again, which I really doubt, you can tell them not to do it again.

What, if the judges believed a ruling that would benefit your deck, you wouldn't say anything? For shame. Learn a little honor.
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I definately agree.

The names of the cards are so confusing sometimes as well, and i myself don't get the pronounciation correct the first time in some cases.

When dealing with older players, i would promote the thinking that the names should be spoken very literally and correct. When dealing with younger players, i would definately allow for some leniency.

All in all, the effect does technically call for a literal Card Name, but realisically i would do as John suggests, and immediatly call over a Judge to witness and make the call.
 
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Also, if they have real trouble with pronunciation (being Japanese, German, American, whatever ;)) then maybe you can have them write it down on a piece of paper, then pronunciation isn't an issue. Oh well, just trying to help, even though I probably didn't

-chaosruler
 
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chaosruler said:
Also, if they have real trouble with pronunciation (being Japanese, German, American, whatever ;)) then maybe you can have them write it down on a piece of paper, then pronunciation isn't an issue. Oh well, just trying to help, even though I probably didn't

-chaosruler
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You know... I made a pretty long winded post on that very subject of writing the name down, and somehow it disappeared...

A misspelling can still be interpreted when the name is read (sometimes), whereas, there is no mistake that your opponent put down one thing over the other when it is in writing.
 
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Raijinili said:
I didn't say "dishonest". I said "dishonorable". You know about honor, don't you?
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Man that took a lot of reading..anyways

So let me get this straight, you're saying that *scenario moment* in the Final of the World Championship you play Question and your opponent calls Black Luster Soldier when it's BLS Envoy at the bottom, you let him get that call and he takes the title on the next turn, you're saying that's perfectly fine and you're perfectly happy about it because it's all about honor? rubbish

If my opponent called Harpie Lady, I'd accept it, because in effect, the others basically have their name 'changed' even if the pictures and second effects are different.

If my opponent called Sasuke Samurai, I'd give them a sniff of a second chance and ask them "which one? remember there's 4".

It's the same all over, it's not to do with honor, it's to do with enforcing the cards effect and making sure you don't give away cheap opportunities for your opponent to win when you're the one playing the card to win.

Say for instance you play the card, let it slide, Mr Newbie beats you and goes onto the next opponent, whom also plays Question but plays it more precisely, asking for the exact card name and the Newbie losses because of it. He's then gonna go complainin to a judge saying you told him it's fine to play the card this way when it's not, so there you go you've gotten a newb knocked out because you were too lenient on your own play of the card.

Another example would be ((and obviously in future)) Toons, your opponent calls Goblin Attack Force, Gemini Elf or even Summoned Skull, I'm not gonna let my opponent get away with missing one word quite simple because they are different cards with different names

In this game there is no room for assumptions as it's been said, one assumption can make or break a duel. The only exception is those who can't pronounce cards that well, in which case pen and paper time. Heck (not that anyone plays him) I can't pronounce Kojikocy...or even Hyzoranryu ((probably can't spell it either lol)).

If any of that makes sense then well done, you've read it well lol

inconclusion it should be the exact name unless the cards own effect stats otherwise ((EG Harpie Lady 1/2/3/Cyber))
 
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Well said!! The bottomline is, too many things can happen when you allow or let one instance go by.

If you make it so that the card must be called correctly, and enforce the standard, there can be no complaint when it is not.

I used to think it was funny to watch some kids call out the name of cards like they were actually on the TV Show, but when you think about it, they have the right idea because they actually USE the cards full name when they do it.
 
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My views:

Harpie Ladies - "Harpie Lady" will do for those whose names are treated as such.

Samurai - Specific number, obviously. "Sasuke Samurai #1" doesn't exist, so assume they meant "Sasuke Samurai" and go from that.

Luster Dragons - Luster Dragon is the 1900 ATK one, Luster Dragon #2 is the 2400 ATK one. If it sounds like they know which one they're on about, go on that. Otherwise, ask them if they're sure, but don't give any hints. "Meaning" the other one doesn't matter.

Luster Soldiers - Really, when using Question, the opponent will make sure to say "Envoy of the Beginning". If they haven't encountered it before your duel, they'll ask to look at it, and remember its name (somewhat, at least). At least, they should do. If they definitely say only "Black Luster Soldier", then they're talking about the original and Ritual version.


I think it's a matter of how the opponent says it. If it's a confident "Black Luster Soldier" only, they're wrong (provided you have the Envoy in question). If they can't quite remember which Sasuke Samurai it is, remind them at most that there are 4 of them around.

I also say that, to some extent, a description of which card it is should be allowed. "Luster Dragon #2, I think that's the 2400 ATK one, right? I know there was an errata..." is just about fine for me, because they said the right name. "Sasuke Samurai, that one with the coin toss effect" is just about not acceptable. They didn't guess at the name, only the effect (they said "Sasuke Samurai", so treat that as their answer, but only after you tell them that they're guessing "Sasuke Samurai", so they don't get upset when they think they guessed the correct card). Also, "that monster that you can Normal Summon without a Tribute to give it half its ATK" is certainly not allowed as a guess. They obviously know the effect well enough; they should at least know the name too.
 
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As far as Black Luster Soldier goes, I would call Black Luster Soldier, Envoy, and I think that that should be acceptable. Also, masterwoo0, I must've missed that post, or I would have chimed in to agree with you.

-chaosruler
 
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chaosruler said:
As far as Black Luster Soldier goes, I would call Black Luster Soldier, Envoy, and I think that that should be acceptable. Also, masterwoo0, I must've missed that post, or I would have chimed in to agree with you.

-chaosruler
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You missed it cause it must have got caught in the change to the new server or something.
 
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Ah, anyway, Kevin replied to the question post:
>>>>>>>>>>
Question (Normal Spell Card):
When activating this card, your opponent cannot check cards in the
Graveyard. Your opponent calls the name of the first monster found at
the bottom of your Graveyard. If he/she calls it right, the monster is
removed from play. If he/she calls it wrong, the monster is Special
Summoned to your side of the field.
<<<<<<<<<<

Many people seem to like to take advantage of a technicality. For
example, special summoning "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the
Beginning" when their opponent calls "Black Luster Soldier", or even
"Luster Dragon #2" when their opponent simply calls "Luster Dragon".
I believe that this is unfair and not the intent of "Question"'s
creators.

In this message, "player" will refer to the controller of "Question"
and "opponent" will refer to the opponent. Both will be male, for
sake of convenience.

Here are a few scenarios in which I believe the player may be pushing
the limits of fair play.
1) The player has a "Luster Dragon #2" in his graveyard, but it is an
older print that says "Luster Dragon". He does not use the other
Luster Dragon in his deck. The opponent calls "Luster Dragon". The
player states that it is not the official name and special summons
"Luster Dragon #2". It is irrelevent whether the opponent knows about
the two printings of "Luster Dragon", and you couldn't have it proven
anyway.

2) The player has a "Cyber Harpie Lady" in his graveyard. The
opponent calls "Harpie Lady". The player states that it is not the
name on the card and special summons "Cyber Harpie Lady".

3) The player has a "Cyber Harpie Lady" in his graveyard. The
opponent calls "Cyber Harpie Lady". The player states that it is not
the official name, says that there is no such card named "Cyber Harpie
Lady", and special summons "Cyber Harpie Lady".

4) The player has a "Sasuke Samurai #2" in his graveyard. The
opponent says "Sasuke Samurai, the one with 200 attack". The player
states that it is not correct and special summons "Sasuke Samurai #2".

5) The player, on the first turn, summons a monster and plays "Monster
Gate". He picks up "Rare Metal Dragon" before getting a monster that
can be normal summoned, and special summons it. He then plays
"Question". (This might actually just be a good combo rather than
unfairness.)

6) The player has a "Sasuke Samurai #2" in his graveyard. The
opponent says "Sasuke Samurai..." and the player cuts in, stating that
it is not correct and special summons "Sasuke Samurai #2".

7) The player has a "Mushroom Man #2" in his graveyard. The opponent
calls "Mushroom Man". The player states that it is not correct and
special summons "Mushroom Man #2". (There is no Mushroom Man #1.)

8) The player has a "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End" in his
graveyard. The opponent calls "CED". The player states that it is
not correct and special summons "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the
End".

9) 8) The player has a "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End" in
his graveyard. The opponent calls "Chaos Emperor Dragon". The player
states that it is not correct and special summons "Chaos Emperor
Dragon - Envoy of the End".





Response:

The intention of the opponent is clear in these scenarios.

As Judges we should rule accordingly.
 
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Okay....

So calling "Sasuke Samurai" for Sasuke Samurai #4 is fine.

Saying "Black Luster" is fine too since there's no real need to say the full name at all as it makes no difference.


As a player, you can "intend" to do several things, but it is your "actions" that are measured.
 
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Well not exactly... with the Sasake Samurai ruling, he did specify which kind it was by the ATK though he didn't have the number... and as for Chaos Emperor Dragon / CED I could almost see that since there is no other monster like that (currently anyway it is a class by itself)...

But notice that none of the examples even tried to deal with the BLS/BLS-EotB issue. That is different than having an errata-ed "Luster Dragon".
 
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