Question's question

[FiendMaster]

What if I have a monster card says, "black luster soldier - envoy of the beginning" in the graveyard and my opponent call " black luster soldier". Can I say that its the wrong monster and special summon BLS-envoy to the field (assume he was summoned properly in the beginning)

Question

 

[Spike Kaiba]

So you'd throw all the hard work of getting the finals away on not really caring if they get the exact name?


Also why warn them when you can just enforce it properly yourself in the first place

 

[Maruno]

I dont see why they just didn't name them all Harpy Lady. I believe if you call Harpie Lady it would cover ALL of them [Harpy Lady, Harpy Lady 1,2,3 and Cyber Harpy Lady]

Do you mean why didn't they give all those cards the exact same printed name of "Harpie Lady"? There are 5 different version of the card out, 3 with differing effects and 1 with a different ATK/DEF to the others. Since they're different, they can't be the same, because if they were the same that would imply that they are the exact same card, with the same ATK/DEF and effect (or lack of such). That kind of defeats the object of making these cards with their different effects.

 

[Raijinili]

So you'd throw all the hard work of getting the finals away on not really caring if they get the exact name?


Also why warn them when you can just enforce it properly yourself in the first place

Did I say that? I said I would ask them. It's also a SMART move. Rather than give him a reason to call the judge over and risk losing the call anyway, I would give him a chance to make a mistake.

Also, what do you mean "enforce the rule properly"? The judge list gave an answer, and that is the proper ruling.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

When it comes down to it, I'd base it on "the intention" on the opponent who calls it. If my opponent were to say "Black Luster Soldier" I'd immediately ask which one, if they say "Envoy" easy enough, there's only 1 BLS-EoTb. If he/she were to say "Luster", you know which one I'm refering too. There's only 2 versions.

But if he/she isn't specific enough, you know damn well I'm gonna ask which one he/she is talking about. Like the Harpie's versions.

Also, I just like to point out Maruno, who made a very good point.

Do you mean why didn't they give all those cards the exact same printed name of "Harpie Lady"? There are 5 different version of the card out, 3 with differing effects and 1 with a different ATK/DEF to the others. Since they're different, they can't be the same, because if they were the same that would imply that they are the exact same card, with the same ATK/DEF and effect (or lack of such). That kind of defeats the object of making these cards with their different effects.

They aren't the same cards.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Actually, I would say, "Which one?" I would give him a chance to amend his call. And yes, I would do that.

All I can say to that is, that sounds like a line to me.

That should never happen as I would warn the player to be specific the next time.

Yeah, that'll stop him.

And if I'm playing a young child in a tournament that I paid fifteen to thirty dollars to enter, then yes, I'm going to be picky about how the cards are played, regardless of his/her age. We are a one income family of three, and tourneys are a luxury for me. If I manage to scrape up enough dough to enter one, then it's with the intention to go as far as I can, not to forfiet, essentially, to a child whose parents don't care if they waste thirty bucks on their kid's each and every whim.

And you know this about the kid how?

It was an example of a kid. It doesn't really matter. Whether the kids Rocakfeller or sold his bike and puppy to make enough dough to be in the tournament. If your playing in a tournament and your not really that good, you should be more then prepared to lose to more experienced players. Conversley if your experienced, then you shouldn't hold back because your opponent plays poorly (weather it's because he's young or he's older and just new to the game.) I'm not going to. And that is not dishonarable.

That works both ways. Duel mind games, man.

If you say so.

 

[Digital Jedi]

They aren't the same cards.

Yes. And that is what Maruno is saying.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Yes. And that is what Maruno is saying.

I was agreeing with Maruno, complimenting on the comment.

 

[Spike Kaiba]

Did I say that? I said I would ask them. It's also a SMART move. Rather than give him a reason to call the judge over and risk losing the call anyway, I would give him a chance to make a mistake.

Also, what do you mean "enforce the rule properly"? The judge list gave an answer, and that is the proper ruling.

Hm...gee where did I use the word rule in "enforce it properly" ?

 

[Digital Jedi]

I was agreeing with Maruno, complimenting on the comment.

And I was having a seizure and skipped over that sentence completley.

 

[Maruno]

I was more answering Bill's query about why all those 5 different versions were given 5 different names. You can't give the same identical name to two different things now, can you?

I actually think that calling "Harpie Lady" in response to Question will remove any of the 5 Harpies if they happen to be at the bottom of your Graveyard at the time. So you don't have to call "Cyber Harpie Lady" in order to remove that version from play. After all, their effects all say they are treated as "Harpie Lady" ("being treated as" and "actually being" are two different phrases) and work with Elegant Egotist and Deck construction, so why not here too?

 

[Raijinili]

All I can say to that is, that sounds like a line to me.

Well, it takes one to know one, I guess. Since you wouldn't do it, you assume that I wouldn't either. Which, by the way, is an insult to that "h" word: Honor.

Yeah, that'll stop him.

Eh, the official ruling says that as long as the intent is CLEAR, that it would be allowed. I want to teach clear play, but I can't do anything if they don't want to learn.

It was an example of a kid. It doesn't really matter. Whether the kids Rocakfeller or sold his bike and puppy to make enough dough to be in the tournament. If your playing in a tournament and your not really that good, you should be more then prepared to lose to more experienced players. Conversley if your experienced, then you shouldn't hold back because your opponent plays poorly (weather it's because he's young or he's older and just new to the game.) I'm not going to. And that is not dishonarable.

I did not say to hold back in the playing, but I would rather have lost fairly than have won on a technicality that was never supposed to have existed. They said that the clear intention is the most important thing.

And as I said, trying to insist that your opponent didn't get it right just because of a technicality would give him a reason to call the judge, who might rule against you after that Judge List message. Asking him to clarify would give him a chance to question his call even when you know he's correct.

Hm...gee where did I use the word rule in "enforce it properly" ?

Yes, well, I did that delibrately. Not everything in quotes are direct quotes. And since I was about to make a scathing remark about reading experience, I realize that I'm letting you get to me. So I won't make the remark.

However, I will point out that you didn't address my point. It's standard practice when you point out an "error". See, I just used the quotes again.

 

[daivahataka]

I did not say to hold back in the playing, but I would rather have lost fairly than have won on a technicality that was never supposed to have existed. They said that the clear intention is the most important thing.

And as I said, trying to insist that your opponent didn't get it right just because of a technicality would give him a reason to call the judge, who might rule against you after that Judge List message. Asking him to clarify would give him a chance to question his call even when you know he's correct.

Definitely commend your gaming spirit, many times in tournaments I've faced opponents will illegal decks (due to more than one of a particular restricted card or using banned cards, fake cards, etc...), I just inform them of this, tell them to make sure to fix it before they play anyone else and continue with the game. Sure it's cost me a few wins but better to know you're good enough to beat some of the cheaters than have most of your wins due to technicalities (I hate getting BYEs!!!! ) and look like a sore loser, as if you keep winning this way it will just look to others as though you lack confidence in your playing ability.
You'll always come across a small few people who cheat and others who don't realise that they are doing so, so you might as well get on with it, make sure they know they're cheating and then if they continue to do so deal with them more harshly.

 

[John Danker]

That really is a tough call for a player. Obviously in a regional or higher level tournament you have to hold a player accountable for an illegal deck. At that level they should know the ban list and all of the other rules as for what's an illegal deck or not.

On a local level though the line greys a bit. You don't want to discourage a new player and get them upset. I can understand it if you're playing someone completely new in the first round and they activate their second Pot of Greed and you whisper, "Hey, I don't want to see you lose this match because you have an illegal deck, Pot of Greed is limited to 1 per deck my friend. Why don't you just draw a new card and fix your deck in between rounds and we'll call it cool alright?" That's commendable on your part and a very giving thing to do with their best interest in mind.

The problem with the above scenario though is it's a bit more involved that it first appears. First, how is this person going to fix their deck? They've already turned in a deck sheet, if they take a card out and they only have 40 cards in their deck they could take a card out of their side deck....if they have one, and then they'd still have an illegal deck with a side deck count at 14. Their deck sheet would be off as well. If they pull a card from their binder to replace the second Pot of Greed then they still have an illegal deck sheet. Secondly, if it isn't first round they player previous players with an illegal deck possibly making their chances better to win and those players may have lost because this person is playing 2 or 3 Pot of Greeds, that's not fair either.

If this person would change their deck and later have a deck check, and then the judge points out the error and this person says, "Well Yugi over there just told me to switch the card out." then you're in a heap of trouble with the judge.

I really can appreciate the compassion and spirit with which the statement made about not wanting to win by technicallity was made. I think, however, in the long run it possibly won't benefit either your opponent and it may reflect poorly on you (though obviously your spirit of fair play and intention was good) At worst this person would take a match loss and move on. I think most of us have taken one on the chin at some point along the line that way. We learn best from our mistakes.

 

[masterwoo0]

Echoing what John said, sometimes being the "take one on the chin" guy doesnt always work since it can have far reaching ripples in an actual Regional or higher tourney.

If this guy that got the "assist" makes it to the Top 8, you can bet a dime to a dollar that they will ALL get a thorough Deck Check, and that's when EVERYONE finds out that he has had an illegal deck throughout the tournament.

What's worse? The several hundred players that missed out on the chance to be where he will no longer be sitting, or, calling a judge over and trying to take care of what may have been an honest mistake.

I'm still correcting players on Mystical Space Typhoon being restricted to 1 and to take the other 2 out of their Main and/or Side Deck.

 

[daivahataka]

That really is a tough call for a player. Obviously in a regional or higher level tournament you have to hold a player accountable for an illegal deck. At that level they should know the ban list and all of the other rules as for what's an illegal deck or not.

On a local level though the line greys a bit. You don't want to discourage a new player and get them upset. I can understand it if you're playing someone completely new in the first round and they activate their second Pot of Greed and you whisper, "Hey, I don't want to see you lose this match because you have an illegal deck, Pot of Greed is limited to 1 per deck my friend. Why don't you just draw a new card and fix your deck in between rounds and we'll call it cool alright?" That's commendable on your part and a very giving thing to do with their best interest in mind.

The problem with the above scenario though is it's a bit more involved that it first appears. First, how is this person going to fix their deck? They've already turned in a deck sheet, if they take a card out and they only have 40 cards in their deck they could take a card out of their side deck....if they have one, and then they'd still have an illegal deck with a side deck count at 14. Their deck sheet would be off as well. If they pull a card from their binder to replace the second Pot of Greed then they still have an illegal deck sheet. Secondly, if it isn't first round they player previous players with an illegal deck possibly making their chances better to win and those players may have lost because this person is playing 2 or 3 Pot of Greeds, that's not fair either.

If this person would change their deck and later have a deck check, and then the judge points out the error and this person says, "Well Yugi over there just told me to switch the card out." then you're in a heap of trouble with the judge.

I really can appreciate the compassion and spirit with which the statement made about not wanting to win by technicallity was made. I think, however, in the long run it possibly won't benefit either your opponent and it may reflect poorly on you (though obviously your spirit of fair play and intention was good) At worst this person would take a match loss and move on. I think most of us have taken one on the chin at some point along the line that way. We learn best from our mistakes.

Even in the last chance qualifiers for the Irish Nationals there were no deck sheets and they were run by a UDE staff member. So the issue of changing your decks contents between opponents doesn't apply here in Ireland.
As to the previous players there's not a whole lot that can be done much of the time, it depends on whether the TO would be willing to amend the results from the previous round(s), and the guy who usually runs them here certainly isn't.
The only time I've ever drawn complaint from anyone regarding this sort of thing was forfeiting a last chance qualifier win so that the other person could go to the Nationals as I wasn't bothered, and that was just someone being an ass/holier than thou type person.

True enough, if the person got to the Nationals I'd expect them to know what they're at and certainly would make sure to call the Judge over if it was a clearly illegal deck, but for anything lower unless it's the Final 8 or something I wouldn't be too bothered and would just try educate them, see to it that they fix the deck before playing anyone else.

 

[John Danker]

Wow, really? No deck sheets? I'm sure that will change soon. You can count on needing to have one filled out should you make it to world. Not having a deck sheet begs for cheating to run wild!

 

[daivahataka]

Wow, really? No deck sheets? I'm sure that will change soon. You can count on needing to have one filled out should you make it to world. Not having a deck sheet begs for cheating to run wild!

I know it does seem weird, kinda would've expected that with a UDE staff member there they would've had them. Think I'll ask one of the lads who went to the Nationals if they even had them then (on fair terms with the guy who one so should be able to find out from him if no-one else).
In many ways deck sheets would help reduce/eliminate illegal decks for us which can only be a plus, it would mean that we'd need to arrive earlier for the tournaments to let the Judges check over our deck lists but that wouldn't be too bad.
On the plus side of no deck sheets you do get players who once they've won 3 (and so shouldn't really lose any rating points) they'll switch to a "fun" deck for the laugh and being restricted to one deck may kill off this phenomenon.

 

[masterwoo0]

I know it does seem weird, kinda would've expected that with a UDE staff member there they would've had them. Think I'll ask one of the lads who went to the Nationals if they even had them then (on fair terms with the guy who one so should be able to find out from him if no-one else).
In many ways deck sheets would help reduce/eliminate illegal decks for us which can only be a plus, it would mean that we'd need to arrive earlier for the tournaments to let the Judges check over our deck lists but that wouldn't be too bad.
On the plus side of no deck sheets you do get players who once they've won 3 (and so shouldn't really lose any rating points) they'll switch to a "fun" deck for the laugh and being restricted to one deck may kill off this phenomenon.

That is WAY different than what we have occuring here. Only in Duelist League Tourney's would you see someone using different decks throughout the tournament. That's pretty much the best way to test out a deck, but using different decks in a Sanctioned Tournament almost ensures (and promotes cheating) that a player can basically "modify" his Main Deck and Side Deck throughout the tourney to keep advantage over his opponents, especially if he is taking the time to walk around checking the better players.

A Deck List is a must!!! Playing without one causes the tournament to lose credibility as there is no way of knowing what a player started and ended the tournament with.

 

[daivahataka]

That is WAY different than what we have occuring here. Only in Duelist League Tourney's would you see someone using different decks throughout the tournament. That's pretty much the best way to test out a deck, but using different decks in a Sanctioned Tournament almost ensures (and promotes cheating) that a player can basically "modify" his Main Deck and Side Deck throughout the tourney to keep advantage over his opponents, especially if he is taking the time to walk around checking the better players.

Doesn't really work that way here, people are too busy chatting & trading to be checking out the opposition and many of the higher players bring multiple decks in boxes and dont' decide until they're sitting across from their opponent which one they feel like playing (or in some cases they let the oppoent choose the box and they play whatever deck's in it). But I do feel that it probably would be best if we switched to using deck sheets as well, prepare players for the international scene and not just the local.

 

[John Danker]

Oh man! What a nightmare!....on the other hand, THAT would certainly make a tournament more interesting wouldn't it?