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FiendMaster

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What if I have a monster card says, "black luster soldier - envoy of the beginning" in the graveyard and my opponent call " black luster soldier". Can I say that its the wrong monster and special summon BLS-envoy to the field (assume he was summoned properly in the beginning)

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In this kind of situation, I'd just ask my opponent to be a bit more specific, by reminding them that there is also a Black Luster Soldier that is a Ritual Monster. Similarly with Luster Dragon; I'd ask specifically which one he/she is thinking of. Last thing we need in this game is ambiguity.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
According to the rules Black Luster Soldier is a different monster all together; suggesting that you will be able to summon it.

But you played a Black Luster Soldier - EofB, and didn't play BLS (ritual monster) so obviously your opponent meant BLS-EofB, and a judge should rule that you don't get to summon it.
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In this case, I'd have to say that if the opponent called "Black Luster Soldier" and not "Black Luster Soldier- Envoy of the Beginning", then he called wrong.

The two cards are ruled as different monsters for a reason. To call one differently is the same as calling "Fish" and you meant "Aqua" for Tribe Infecting Virus' effect.

Knowing what you meant, and saying what you mean can make all the difference in this game. Assumptions cannot be allowed to overrule actual gameplay.

If I have 5 Monsters on the field of at least 1000 attack, and my opponent has no monsters, 4000 life points left, and no Spell and Traps and I'm the turn player, if I "assume" my opponent knows I am going to attack him for game, but I dont declare an attack and pick up my cards from the field and shuffle them in my deck as if I won, my opponent can ask for a ruling which more than likely will result in a game loss for me because I assumed my opponent "knew" he was dead, but never asked him if he conceded.

This isnt being overly picky, but to be fair, I would ask him again which monster he picked, and if he continued to call "Black Luster Soldier" then I would call a Judge and tell him that my opponent called the wrong card because I have "Black Luster Soldier - EotB".

If the opponent never corrected himself, assumptions should never be allowed since that could easily become more of a problem later.
 
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ok, so far I know Judge cannot answer hypothetical (check spelling) question. Since they cannot answer hypothetical question, they cannot make assumption or assume that's what we meant to say or do because it can change the duel.

So I think that if my opponent called "Black Luster Soldier" and not its full name " Black Luster Soldier-eotb" then its wrong because if he was to say that I have Sasuke Samarai in my graveyard but infact I have Sasuke Samarai #4, these are two separate card. LOL

The card didnt says your opponent can guess again. so I wouldn't tell him to say the whole name if i gave him the card to read and he understood the context and says OK. at this point, it assumed that he knows the rule of the card. :D
 
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FiendMaster said:
ok, so far I know Judge cannot answer hypothetical (check spelling) question. Since they cannot answer hypothetical question, they cannot make assumption or assume that's what we meant to say or do because it can change the duel.

So I think that if my opponent called "Black Luster Soldier" and not its full name " Black Luster Soldier-eotb" then its wrong because if he was to say that I have Sasuke Samarai in my graveyard but infact I have Sasuke Samarai #4, these are two separate card. LOL

The card didnt says your opponent can guess again. so I wouldn't tell him to say the whole name if i gave him the card to read and he understood the context and says OK. at this point, it assumed that he knows the rule of the card. :D
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The example you gave with "Sasuke Samurai" is BEAUTIFUL and further example of why it cannot be "assumed" as to what your opponent actually meant to say, versus what he said.

With 4 versions of Sasuke Samurai out, a player would be careless as to just state "Sasuke Samurai" as the card name, and if it were #3 in the Graveyard, he guesses wrong....
 
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A) There are 998 monsters in the game (over a thousand with TP6). How can you expect someone to be able to recall the exact name of all of them?

B) 7 is the limit for a short term memory, Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Begining, can take up 5 thought processes just to remember the name.. plus at least one more to know that it was on the bottom of the deck.

C) When the name uses words in a familiar language, it only takes up one though process per word, and small words not take any, "of" "the." However, when the words are foreign, or new names, aural-learning people take one though process per sound, and visual-learning people take one though process per letter:
Nobody is going to remember Mikazukinoyaiba, or Misairuzame and they may likely come out as the name of another card.

D) Synonyms/ Interchangeable words, people often remember the meaning or connotation of a word and not the actual word itself. People hear Steel ogre grotto, they take Steel as connoting its made of extremely strong material, people hear Stone Ogre Grotto take Stone as connoting its made of extremely strong material, and all of a sudden their memory is no longer able to distinguish betweeen the two.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
A) There are 998 monsters in the game (over a thousand with TP6). How can you expect someone to be able to recall the exact name of all of them?

B) 7 is the limit for a short term memory, Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Begining, can take up 5 thought processes just to remember the name.. plus at least one more to know that it was on the bottom of the deck.

C) When the name uses words in a familiar language, it only takes up one though process per word, and small words not take any, "of" "the." However, when the words are foreign, or new names, aural-learning people take one though process per sound, and visual-learning people take one though process per letter:
Nobody is going to remember Mikazukinoyaiba, or Misairuzame and they may likely come out as the name of another card.

D) Synonyms/ Interchangeable words, people often remember the meaning or connotation of a word and not the actual word itself. People hear Steel ogre grotto, they take Steel as connoting its made of extremely strong material, people hear Stone Ogre Grotto take Stone as connoting its made of extremely strong material, and all of a sudden their memory is no longer able to distinguish betweeen the two.
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Is that NOT the point of Question??? You dont get to look at your opponents Graveyard when its activated, so all you have is to rely on your memory. This is not at all being unreasonable to suggest that your opponent be more exacting with their "guess".

Everyone knows that Black Luster Soldier - EotB is NOT THE Ritual Card. How hard is it that when you know what card your opponent summoned, to use it correctly when it means that he gets to summon it to the field if you dont say it right???

The reason this has such great implications is the use of D. D. Designator and other card effects that name cards in hand or deck. Ambiguity can tear an opponents deck apart, when just by guessing wrong, you still get to look in an opponents hand or whatever the effect may state.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Is that NOT the point of Question??? You dont get to look at your opponents Graveyard when its activated, so all you have is to rely on your memory. This is not at all being unreasonable to suggest that your opponent be more exacting with their "guess".

Everyone knows that Black Luster Soldier - EotB is NOT THE Ritual Card. How hard is it that when you know what card your opponent summoned, to use it correctly when it means that he gets to summon it to the field if you dont say it right???

The reason this has such great implications is the use of D. D. Designator and other card effects that name cards in hand or deck. Ambiguity can tear an opponents deck apart, when just by guessing wrong, you still get to look in an opponents hand or whatever the effect may state.
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The point of question is to keep people paying attention to the duel. And not everybody knows about the ritual card Black Luster Soldier: 99% of yugioh players do not have knowledge beyond what's in their deck and what their opponents play. Us online people are the extreme minority of duelists.

The point of question is to know which of your opponents monsters is on the bottom of the grave. It's to pay attention to the duel.

Also when that players announces a summon... does he say "I remove "¦ to summon Black Luster Soldier Envoy of the Beginning" or does he say jsut ""¦ "¦ Black Luster Soldier"

It's the latter, so if the opponent called the same monter the question player summoned, why should he get it wrong?

Question asks the player to remember WHICH monster is on the bottom. Not to know all 1000 monster cards in yugioh there are. Not to know every detail about the monster on the bottom.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
The point of question is to keep people paying attention to the duel. And not everybody knows about the ritual card Black Luster Soldier: 99% of yugioh players do not have knowledge beyond what's in their deck and what their opponents play. Us online people are the extreme minority of duelists.

The point of question is to know which of your opponents monsters is on the bottom of the grave. It's to pay attention to the duel.

Also when that players announces a summon... does he say "I remove "¦ to summon Black Luster Soldier Envoy of the Beginning" or does he say jsut ""¦ "¦ Black Luster Soldier"

It's the latter, so if the opponent called the same monter the question player summoned, why should he get it wrong?

Question asks the player to remember WHICH monster is on the bottom. Not to know all 1000 monster cards in yugioh there are. Not to know every detail about the monster on the bottom.
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The choice is to each player as to how picky they want to be. I know that when my opponent pulls out Black Luster Soldier - EotB and removes a light and a dark to summon him to the field, there's no need for him to name it fully as I can SEE the card.

Question calls for specific memory of a card played and now residing in the Graveyard. The example of Sasuke Samurai illustrates how complex association can get with a card name. Harpy Lady 1, 2, and 3 also make it that much for specific.

There's no way I am going to allow my opponent to get away with just saying "Harpy Lady" (even if it is treated as Harpy Lady when it comes to deck building, Sasuke Samurai is not).

If that would not be allowed, then neither should just saying Black Luster Soldier.

Besides, your opponent isnt going to have 1000 monsters in his deck. At most he is going to have 18-20 or so, and not all of those are going to be in his Graveyard, more than likely, when Question is activated.
 
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I say that it isn't fair to the opponent. The point of Question/Quiz is NOT to cheap out your opponent through a technicality. The whole idea is for them to know the CARD.

To demonstrate this, I sent this question to the Judge list:
>>>>>>>>>>
Question (Normal Spell Card):
When activating this card, your opponent cannot check cards in the
Graveyard. Your opponent calls the name of the first monster found at
the bottom of your Graveyard. If he/she calls it right, the monster is
removed from play. If he/she calls it wrong, the monster is Special
Summoned to your side of the field.
<<<<<<<<<<

Many people seem to like to take advantage of a technicality. For
example, special summoning "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the
Beginning" when their opponent calls "Black Luster Soldier", or even
"Luster Dragon #2" when their opponent simply calls "Luster Dragon".
I believe that this is unfair and not the intent of "Question"'s
creators.

In this message, "player" will refer to the controller of "Question"
and "opponent" will refer to the opponent. Both will be male, for
sake of convenience.

Here are a few scenarios in which I believe the player may be pushing
the limits of fair play.
1) The player has a "Luster Dragon #2" in his graveyard, but it is an
older print that says "Luster Dragon". He does not use the other
Luster Dragon in his deck. The opponent calls "Luster Dragon". The
player states that it is not the official name and special summons
"Luster Dragon #2". It is irrelevent whether the opponent knows about
the two printings of "Luster Dragon", and you couldn't have it proven
anyway.

2) The player has a "Cyber Harpie Lady" in his graveyard. The
opponent calls "Harpie Lady". The player states that it is not the
name on the card and special summons "Cyber Harpie Lady".

3) The player has a "Cyber Harpie Lady" in his graveyard. The
opponent calls "Cyber Harpie Lady". The player states that it is not
the official name, says that there is no such card named "Cyber Harpie
Lady", and special summons "Cyber Harpie Lady".

4) The player has a "Sasuke Samurai #2" in his graveyard. The
opponent says "Sasuke Samurai, the one with 200 attack". The player
states that it is not correct and special summons "Sasuke Samurai #2".

5) The player, on the first turn, summons a monster and plays "Monster
Gate". He picks up "Rare Metal Dragon" before getting a monster that
can be normal summoned, and special summons it. He then plays
"Question". (This might actually just be a good combo rather than
unfairness.)

6) The player has a "Sasuke Samurai #2" in his graveyard. The
opponent says "Sasuke Samurai..." and the player cuts in, stating that
it is not correct and special summons "Sasuke Samurai #2".

7) The player has a "Mushroom Man #2" in his graveyard. The opponent
calls "Mushroom Man". The player states that it is not correct and
special summons "Mushroom Man #2". (There is no Mushroom Man #1.)

8) The player has a "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End" in his
graveyard. The opponent calls "CED". The player states that it is
not correct and special summons "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the
End".

9) 8) The player has a "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End" in
his graveyard. The opponent calls "Chaos Emperor Dragon". The player
states that it is not correct and special summons "Chaos Emperor
Dragon - Envoy of the End".
Click to expand...

And yes, I realized I put "9) 8)" less than a second after clicking Send.
 
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When playing Question, I'd simply make sure the opponent knows exactly which card they're going on about. "Sasuke Samurai, you know, the one that makes the opponent draw cards" would be acceptable for me. Certainly "Chaos Emperor Dragon" or "Mushroom Man" would be fine too.

As for cards treated as Harpie Lady, I'd say calling "Harpie Lady" refers to any card whose name is treated as Harpie Lady (i.e. original, 1, 2, 3, Cyber). If the opponent says "Harpie Lady 2" instead, that's still fine. It shows they were paying attention. I'll let them have it.


What would happen if you activate Question when you only have one card in your Graveyard, and it's your Monster Card? Do you cover it up? If so, when? If you cover it up after playing Question, the opponent has a chance to quickly catch a glimpse of which card it is, just to remind themselves. If you cover it before, the opponent will want to know what's going on, and unconsciously make a note of which card it is anyway.
 
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Whew, been a way for a day or three. Now I'm playing catch up! :eek:

Not having read the entire thread yet, I wanted to type up a situation that came up a local tournament while I can still remember. (Long term memory ain't so good any more. Short term memory ain't so . . .) What was I saying?

Oh yeah. The first time I heard of question being used was at a sanctioned tournament locally a year or so ago. Luster Dragon was the card at the bottom of the Graveyard. However, despite what the card had printed, it was ruled that the opponent did not call the correct card name because it was actually a Luster Dragon #2 at the bottom of the Graveyard. (Or vice versa, I'm a ittle hazy on the whole misprint situation regarding Luster. Bad memeory you know. Or did I say that already?) Regardless the judges ruled that the wrong card was called.

To me, this strikes me as being the purpose of Question. The card is looking for the "correct" card name and testing your opponents knowledge of the game. I had more to say but it's time for my memory pill. :p
 
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Question
normal spell card

When activating this card, your opponent cannot check cards in the
Graveyard. Your opponent calls the name of the first monster found at
the bottom of your Graveyard. If he/she calls it right, the monster is
removed from play. If he/she calls it wrong, the monster is Special
Summoned to your side of the field.

Question ask for the "NAME" of the monster. So a player says Sasuke Samurai and I have Sasuke Samurai #2, #3 and #4 in the graveyard, I would says he called it wrong because I don't have a monster by that NAME in my graveyard or at the bottom. and since Sasuke Samurai 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all different monster, they have different name. This is where question want you to be specific by asking you to NAME the monster. a correct card name is a name that is said completely. The card didnot say that its ok to just say part of it because it might conflict with the other card. duh!

BLS-eotb is not the same as BLS that's why we're allowed to have 1 copy of BLS-eotb and 3 copy of BLS the ritual. if they are the same by name then we can only have 1 copy.

and beside, your opponent generally read the card's text before he/she make his/her choice. when they read your card, you can assume they knew what they're doing and if they call a partial name instead of it's full name then its wrong because there are other monster that has similair name or partial name of another monster.
 
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But if they did say "Harpie Lady" (and I can see the objetions coming here) that IS the name of the card for "Harpie Lady", "Harpie Lady 1", "Harpie Lady 2", "Harpie Lady 3", and "Cyber Harpie Lady". The fact that all say "This card's name is 'Harpie Lady'" pretty much means that goes for not only deck building but every effect in the game that would trigger when something happens to "Harpie Lady". If they say "Harpie Lady 1", technically, there is no such card with that name but you can be a little flexible with that.

Also, if the person says "Luster Dragon... the 2400 one" and the bottom card was in fact "Luster Dragon #2" (and the person had one of the older print cards)... again I would say that does qualify as guessing correctly because you are identifying the specific card. That's how I would rule them.

And as for the "Black Luster Soldier" / "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning" debate, again if you wanted to be technical about it, they are 2 different cards and naming one when you mean the other won't do it. But if you said "Black Luster Soldier... the non-ritual", I'd allow that for the same reason above. It is pretty much a judgment call but it can make for an interesting duel and force you to pay attention to what your opponent does.
 
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FiendMaster said:
Question
normal spell card

When activating this card, your opponent cannot check cards in the
Graveyard. Your opponent calls the name of the first monster found at
the bottom of your Graveyard. If he/she calls it right, the monster is
removed from play. If he/she calls it wrong, the monster is Special
Summoned to your side of the field.

Question ask for the "NAME" of the monster. So a player says Sasuke Samurai and I have Sasuke Samurai #2, #3 and #4 in the graveyard, I would says he called it wrong because I don't have a monster by that NAME in my graveyard or at the bottom. and since Sasuke Samurai 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all different monster, they have different name. This is where question want you to be specific by asking you to NAME the monster. a correct card name is a name that is said completely. The card didnot say that its ok to just say part of it because it might conflict with the other card. duh!

BLS-eotb is not the same as BLS that's why we're allowed to have 1 copy of BLS-eotb and 3 copy of BLS the ritual. if they are the same by name then we can only have 1 copy.

and beside, your opponent generally read the card's text before he/she make his/her choice. when they read your card, you can assume they knew what they're doing and if they call a partial name instead of it's full name then its wrong because there are other monster that has similair name or partial name of another monster.
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Does anyone else sense emanations of dishonorable play?

If Konami wanted that to be the whole point of Question, why would they have given the "Sasuke Samurai" different names in Japan?

Sasuke Samurai: "Samurai that cuts you with one slash"
Sasuke Samurai #2: "Samurai that won't let you get a word in sideways"
Sasuke Samurai #3: "Samurai that acts strangely"
Sasuke Samurai #4: "Samurai that kills you with one attack"

Slightly exaggerated on the translation, but the original samurais were NOT this easily confused.
 
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He's saying that Question was not created so players could be pedantic about the exact names of the cards. FiendMaster was saying you should be.

The Japanese names of the Sasuke Samurai's were all more different than having a different number after them. In the original Japanese game there would be no confusion about which one you meant if you specified one of them by Question's effect. Ergo there shouldn't be confusion about the English game either. If you know what card you're going on about ("The Sasuke Samurai that can kill monster with a coin toss") then nothing else should matter.

I think, basically, if the card you're going to bring out will be a surprise to your opponent (because he/she expected and said a different monster) then you'll get your monster summoned. If the opponent knows what monster it is and calls something to that effect, then you don't get it. There should be no messing around with whether Luster Dragon should have a "#2" after it or not. I say it's not about naming the card, but knowing it instead.
 
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Maruno said:
He's saying that Question was not created so players could be pedantic about the exact names of the cards. FiendMaster was saying you should be.

The Japanese names of the Sasuke Samurai's were all more different than having a different number after them. In the original Japanese game there would be no confusion about which one you meant if you specified one of them by Question's effect. Ergo there shouldn't be confusion about the English game either. If you know what card you're going on about ("The Sasuke Samurai that can kill monster with a coin toss") then nothing else should matter.

I think, basically, if the card you're going to bring out will be a surprise to your opponent (because he/she expected and said a different monster) then you'll get your monster summoned. If the opponent knows what monster it is and calls something to that effect, then you don't get it. There should be no messing around with whether Luster Dragon should have a "#2" after it or not. I say it's not about naming the card, but knowing it instead.
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That would defeat the purpose of Question. Everything else in this game is extremley precise about when and where you can perform effects and how they should be carried out and the order in which they should occur. Even where an effect is activated and where it resloves is the subject of mile long threads on many forums. It shold be just as precise when dealing with Question. It should make no difference with asking a card name. I think the judge ruled correctly.

Incidently, accusing people of being dishonest because they want to play the card this way is unfounded. It's a difference of opinion (and isn't any cheaper then the direct effect of The Warrior Returning Alive.) Any one making acusatons like this should be more careful with making statements like that. No one is attempting to be dishonest here. If anything we are attempting to be more precise with the card's gameplay. Much like we are with every other card discussed in this forum.
 
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This has been debated a few times that I've seen on various boards. My suggestion, as it's so seldom played, would be to call a judge over immediately when Question is activated as witness to the answer. As seldom as it's played 75% of those times I've seen it played there has been a dispute over it.

Let the judge make the call. In the case given I'd agree that the proper number of the monster should be given as well, however, if someone pronounced the name of the monster incorrectly but it was obvious that they knew the proper monster I call it acceptable. Can all of us give correct pronounciation for all the monsters? Of course not and it would be ridiculous to ask anyone to do so.

It is, of course, a judge's call, so let them.
 
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