SACRED PHOENIX OF NEPHTHYS Question

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Tonylaudat

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If my opponet attemps to Special Summon Phenoix from the graveyard via its effect, and I activate either Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgement in responce to negate the summoning, would Phoenix be able to revive itself again? Also, if so, where would Phoenix be considered to have been destoried?
 
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No, in all cases where SJ is used to negate a Special Summon, RO is used in the same manner. (i know RO cannot be used in the Damage Step ;))

- If you chain to the effect with SJ, then you also chain with RO.

- If you "respond" to a Special Summon with SJ, then you also "respond" with RO.

The main difference being that RO can chain to any effect (Monster, Spell, Trap), whereas SJ can only chain to Spell and Trap Cards.
 
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Skey, just enforcing your believes man because I agree with them. Sorry if it seemed like I wasn't. xD

Novastar, that's one of the tiny details that needs to be told right away or someone is going to bring it up later. Might not be real soon but later on the topic could be brought up again. Eliminate it now and be done with it. lol

I should have said Royal Oppression has a very different wording format than Solemn Judgment for negating Special Summonings. =/
 
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?

skey23 said:
Yes, you can use "Bottomless Trap Hole" at that point in time because the monster has been successfully Special Summoned to the field.
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Now I'm confused. Doesn't Bottomless clearly states: " When your opponent normal summons, flip summons or special summons...". And aren't Vampire and Phoenix summoning themselves to the field? It's not you summoning them right?
Thanks
 
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It's still considered that the player summons them though, it's kind of like how although Swords of Reveling Light says that the player can't declare attack, if they have a monster that's unaffected by spell cards then they can declare attack with it. It's pretty much just a case of bad phrasing in the card text.
 
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skey23 said:
Dear..dear Tkwiget. I know full well they are 'outdated', but they do also contain correct rulings, even if they have been removed from the UDE pages, they are still correct.

And that ruling is one of the correct ones. You can't use "Horn of Heaven" to negate the Special Summon of a monster via an outside effect. This means you can't negate the summon of a monster brought back from the Graveyard by "Monster Reborn", "Call of the Haunted", "Premature Burial", etc.. The reason for this is because you are in the middle of the resolution of an effect, and "Horn of Heaven" cannot interrupt the resolution of that effect. And you can't wait until the effect resolves because the Special Summon has already been completed successfully, so there's nothing to stop at that point.
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Actually I'll disagree with that comment on the Horn of Heaven ruling.

You aren't activating the card in a chain with Monster Reborn, Call of the Haunted, etc. you are activating the card in response to the summoning which it should beable to do.

You have to keep in mind, when those cards bring back a monster it will resolve completely when that monster is summoned. There for card can be activated in response to the summoning. This is why I feel that ruling is very very incorrect.
 
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You aren't activating the card in a chain with Monster Reborn, Call of the Haunted, etc. you are activating the card in response to the summoning which it should beable to do.

You have to keep in mind, when those cards bring back a monster it will resolve completely when that monster is summoned. There for card can be activated in response to the summoning. This is why I feel that ruling is very very incorrect.
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No, you have it confused.

The Summon Response Chain as we know it, is past the correct timing for HoH/SJ. Your only option would be to chain it from a mechanical point of view.

HoH must be activated in response to the declaration of a summon not in response to a successful summon. After the effect resolves, successfully summoning V-Lord etc. it is too late to use HoH/SJ, as the summon is already complete by that time. That would be where BTH and the like could be activated.
 
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Aww man!..I was getting this giant resonse ready with the whole 'limbo' thing and the card being on the field, but the monster hasn't 'resolved' to the field, and cards being shells and stuff.

Oh well, I shouldn't have taken soooooo long to respond.

So...yeah...what Nova said!....lol.
 
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I'll steal from something John said and call it the 'Levitation Zone', because the card is kinda like 'levitating' above the field before it successfully resolves.

[edit]Btw..I'm just kidding with this. I know the card isn't REALLY levitating above the field.....There's a fishing wire attached...there HAS to be!..:D
 
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skey23 said:
Also, I believe that "Royal Oppression" ruling to be incorrect, since we already have been told that a monster that's in the Graveyard cannot be destroyed again while it's in the Graveyard ("Divine Wrath" rulings).
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Except that, for one thing, the ruling states that it is negating the Special Summon, not the effect that special summons it (Royal Decree should be able to do either). If it was negating the effect, obviously it would not destroy the monster.

However, if it was negating the SPECIAL SUMMON, then the card would have already been on the field, and thus would need to be destroyed.

You call it erroneous; I call it evidence.
 
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Except you can not negate a special summon after it has occurred, negation has to happen prior to a card effect resolving. You can negate Dark Necrofear with SJ or HOH before she hits the field (summoned from in hand), you can negate the Monster Reborn that is targeting Dark Necrofear in the graveyard when it is activated but you can not negate that special summon once Monster Reborn has resolved, you can then only respond and there are no negating of summons available in a response.
 
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anthonyj said:
Except you can not negate a special summon after it has occurred, negation has to happen prior to a card effect resolving. You can negate Dark Necrofear with SJ or HOH before she hits the field (summoned from in hand), you can negate the Monster Reborn that is targeting Dark Necrofear in the graveyard when it is activated but you can not negate that special summon once Monster Reborn has resolved, you can then only respond and there are no negating of summons available in a response.
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And YOU are also correct. However, it appears that for some reason (BKSS), the ability of "Vampire Lord" and the "Phoenix" to 'resurrect' themselves is considered an 'internal' or 'inherent' ability because it is being 'generated' by the same card being Special Summoned. So that is why it is being said you CAN use "Horn of Heaven"/"Solemn Judgment"/"Royal Oppression" to negate the Special Summon w/o having to negate the actual effect activation.

I'm not sure I agree with it. Especially since, as it's been stated several times, the 'internal' effect IS a chainable event, and as such, it must activate AND resolve, just like an OUTSIDE effect that Special Summons a monster. And if it does indeed do that, then it would be just as you said, too late to use "Horn of Heaven" and the like because you wouldn't be able to interrupt the resolution of the effect.

I can see it both ways now. I'm inclined to agree and 'lean' more towards the latter of the two.
 
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Raijinili said:
Except that, for one thing, the ruling states that it is negating the Special Summon, not the effect that special summons it (Royal Decree should be able to do either). If it was negating the effect, obviously it would not destroy the monster.

However, if it was negating the SPECIAL SUMMON, then the card would have already been on the field, and thus would need to be destroyed.

You call it erroneous; I call it evidence.
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Yes, but this idea of a "quick response" doesn't seem correct. It's like you are adding a 3rd response point in just for the heck of it... sounds erroneous yes.

In my view, the ruling needs to be reviewed, and possibly changed to reflect proper response timing mechanics.

You have 2 choices here, you either respond to the monster effect activation or the successful summon... neither one of those options works for HoH or SJ.
 
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novastar said:
You have 2 choices here, you either respond to the monster effect activation or the successful summon... neither one of those options works for HoH or SJ.
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Ok, now I'm confused again because you said the opposite to me earlier.
novastar said:
If you mean to ask "Can HoH/SJ negate the Special Summon of V-Lord/Phoenix etc.?"

Then the answer is yes (as as the rulings imply), as well as the Special Summons from Hand.
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Unless you weren't referring to them using their effect to Special Summon themselves?...:confused:
 
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I was refering to the current Royal Oppression ruling and apply it is HoH/SJ. I think it would safe to do that in this case.

"[Re: Vampire Lord] When you Special Summon "Vampire Lord" with his effect, your opponent can negate the Special Summon with "Royal Oppression", but the "Vampire Lord" will have been destroyed by your opponent's card effect ("Royal Oppression") and will be Special Summoned again during your next Standby Phase."

That ruling, as Rai points out, states "negate the Special Summon" not "effect" and I see it applying to HoH/SJ as well... which is why i originally stated what i did to you.

The rest is my opinion...
 
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skey23 said:
But if all 3 use/have the same timing when used against summoning, then why would it work for 1 and not the others?
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...because Royal Oppression, unlike the other 2, can still chain to the effect itself and negate it.

I see no way of properly "responding" to the summon declaration itself, based on the mechanics of how Triggers work... so SJ/HoH should not be able to work.
 
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