Sasuke Samurai #3 / Null and Void

J

John Danker

Administrator
A fellow judge of mine who's name online here is Evil Fiberjar sent me this research project....I'm drawing a blank here and there isn't much I can find concering the scenario. I'd appreciate game mechanics being applied if you can relate them....I'm at work....not much time to get into it right now.

Evil Fiberjar's scenario is as follows.....

Ok if my Sasuke samurai #3 inflicts battle damage to my opponent's LP and in chain I activate Null and Void in response will it deck out the oppenent?

Sasuke Samurai #3's effect: When this card inflicts battle damage to your opponent's Life Points, your opponent draws cards until his/her hand has 7 cards.

Null and Void's effect: You can only activate this card when an effect of drawing card(s) is activated. Both players see the cards drawn by the effect and send them all to the graveyard.

The rulings say you can activate Null and Void in chain to Sasuke samurai #3's effect.

Another ruling says the card(s) discarded by the effect of "Null and Void" are never treated as actually drawn, so they are considered sent from the deck to the graveyard.
So in a sense, since they never actually go to the hand and "complete" sasuke samurai #3's effect to where they need the 7 cards would they have to keep drawing untl the effect of Sasuke Samurai is complete?

I'm assuming that Sasuke Samurai's #3 effect won't be applied again. It's activation has been completed and wouldn't trigger again. Still, it's an interesting question and one that should spark some interesting conversation.
 
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Evil Fiber Jar said:
No because you see if they must keep drawing cards that Null and Void can never resolve
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Once the cards are discarded by the effect of Null and Void then Null and Void HAS resolved. The only thing that has not resolved is the effect of S.S.#3
 
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Ok John you see the effect from Null and Void DOESNT resolve during this chain because you use it when a drawing effect is activated and it continues on until that effect is completed. When the other is completed then so is Null and Void. But With this combo neither are ever completed resulting in a deck out. So how can it be completed??
 
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Raigekick said:
Please look at my post above. This is how I see things resolving. Thanks.

EDIT: it got burried due to fast responses ;)
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Ok do you know that the cards from SS#3 never reach the hand due to Null and Void? because your last post sounded as you didnt. Just wondering
 
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Evil [ycard="LOD-EN056" said:
Fiber Jar[/ycard]]Ok John you see the effect from Null and Void DOESNT resolve during this chain because you use it when a drawing effect is activated and it continues on until that effect is completed. When the other is completed then so is Null and Void. But With this combo neither are ever completed resulting in a deck out. So how can it be completed??
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Null and Void
Card Text:

You can only activate this card when an effect of drawing card(s) is activated...

The conditions of Null and Void to be activated were correct. At the time Null and Void was activated S.S.#3's effect made them so. The card text from Null and Void states nothing about the conditions needing to be correct at resolution.....and besides, by the time the cards are considered never drawn....Null and Void has resolved.

Here folks, is an example of why an Irishman and a German should never become involved in a debate together <belly chuckle>
 
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Ok I see your point but where and at which point will Null and Void resolve then in this chain because of what you said then if its true, I still dont see how either effect still just plain out STOPS working. Cause thats what it sounds like you are saying.

P.S.: You havin as much fun as I am John?:D
 
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Evil Fiber Jar said:
Ok I see your point but where and at which point will Null and Void resolve then in this chain because of what you said then if its true, I still dont see how either effect still just plain out STOPS working. Cause thats what it sounds like you are saying.

P.S.: You havin as much fun as I am John?:D
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I'll show you and explain it to you next time we meet up at the store....this thread is getting far too long!
 
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Ok thats fine i got both the cards right in front of me and the rulings from Ronin up too.

For everyone else reading this I suggest looking at it from my point of veiw before saying anything else. Check Ronin if you have it available and then hopefully you can see it from my point of veiw.
 
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John Danker said:
<peeking back in>

The cards from S.S.#3's effect are considered drawn (which is why you can activate Null and Void in the first place) until discarded by the effect of Null and Void. At the point they are discarded only THEN are they not considered drawn...and at that point Null and Void has resolved.
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this is true then it would make it harder to reach the hand. Thus making null and void harder to complete. From what you say it makes some sense BUT, if you think about it SS#3 activates his effect. Then you activate Null and Void. Ok?
Next Null and Void makes those cards never actually drawn as said in Ronin. Due to this SS#3 cant satisfy his effect because of the fact that the cards drawn arent even actually drawn nor do they make it to the hand.
Okies?
When you think of it the way you put it, you make it sound like the cards hit the hand THEN get discarded. But as I said earlier how can they hit the hand to be discarded (Look at Ronin's rulings to further understand my point) with Null and Voids effect making them never touch the hand and due to SS#3 they must keep on drawing.
Basically every card drawn from SS#3 as soon as it is drawn from Null and Void is made so it doesnt touch the hand and is never drawn so it never resolves.
 
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Sasuke Samurai #3 and Null and Void is like a Monster attacking and Mirror Force.

Sasuke attacks, and then he gets to activate his effect, which can be chained to with Null and Void.

A monster attacks and then you can activate Mirror Force to destroy it. Does that mean the attack went through? No.

Does the chain of Null and Void mean that Sasuke gets to resolve his effect? How can he when it was only the effect to draw, and not the resolution of "drawing" that was chained too?
 
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John Danker said:
<peeking back in>

The cards from S.S.#3's effect are considered drawn (which is why you can activate Null and Void in the first place) until discarded by the effect of Null and Void. At the point they are discarded only THEN are they not considered drawn...and at that point Null and Void has resolved.
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I think this hits the nail on the head.

Reading through the thread, Evil Fiber Jar, if Null and Void worked the way you are describing, then anytime you activated it, you would auto-deckout the opponent. Think about what you're saying...if you have to keep picking up cards because they are never considered "drawn" then you would draw 2 cards for Pot of Greed, then discard for Null and Void, then, because the effect of PoG was never satisfied (you never "drew" 2 cards) you draw 2 more, Null and Void forces the discard of thoses....and on and on and on. The same for Airknight Parshath, Bistro Butcher, etc.

Obviously, this is not the case. Null and Void will not auto-deck your opponent because just like S.S. #3, all the draw effects are mandatory. Activating N&V in response to S.S. #3 will no more cause your opponent to deck out than activating it in response to Pot of Greed, Airknight, etc.

The way I see it, the cards in question are considered "drawn" until the effect of Null and Void essentially negates the fact that they were ever in your hand, and they are now treated as though they were not. Both effects resolve normally because at the time the cards were drawn S.S. #3's effect was satisfied.
 
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Would Null and Void's effects be considered a lingering effect? I ask because its description makes it seem like it kicks in when cards are actually drawn. At that point, it has acknowledged that they have been drawn. It says so right on the card. "both players see the cards DRAWN by this effect" so that implies the cards have already been drawn. So you would "draw the 4 cards", which has ended SS. Now the "lingering effect" kicks in and discards them as if they had never been drawn. SS's effect doesn't kick in again, it was already resolved.

My two cents worth, as a Level 0 judge ;)
 
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Well.... here's my opinion

1. SS3 attacks and deals damage
2. SS3 effect starts and cards (4) are selected for drawing
3. NaV effect starts and cards (4) are selected for cancelling (similar to Barrel Behind the Door... legally activated, even though when resolving the damage effect hasn't happened yet)
4. NaV effect ends and cards (4) are handled accordingly
2x SS3 effect ends and the cards (4) are drawn but are unable to compy because cards (4) are in the graveyard at the time so a 'fizzle' occurs


Thats my opinion
 
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Evil [ycard="LOD-EN056" said:
Fiber Jar[/ycard]]this is true then it would make it harder to reach the hand. Thus making Null and Void harder to complete. From what you say it makes some sense BUT, if you think about it SS#3 activates his effect. Then you activate Null and Void. Ok?
Next Null and Void makes those cards never actually drawn as said in Ronin. Due to this SS#3 cant satisfy his effect because of the fact that the cards drawn arent even actually drawn nor do they make it to the hand.
Okies?
When you think of it the way you put it, you make it sound like the cards hit the hand THEN get discarded. But as I said earlier how can they hit the hand to be discarded (Look at Ronin's rulings to further understand my point) with Null and Voids effect making them never touch the hand and due to SS#3 they must keep on drawing.
Basically every card drawn from SS#3 as soon as it is drawn from Null and Void is made so it doesnt touch the hand and is never drawn so it never resolves.
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Not exactly...

Null and Void must be directly chained to the effect that draws. It is similar to a Counter Trap in the way it functions. It counters a "draw".

It itself has no effect, but rather alters the effect of the preceding effect. Similar to how Barrel Behind the Door merly sets up a re-direction right before the damage effect resolves.

So when you resolve SS#3's effect the "conditions" set up by Null and Void will cause the cards to be shown and discarded, rather than drawn.

You resolve both effects once, there is absolutely no infinite loop here.
 
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Null and Void is, in a way, NOT a lingering effect. It is similar to Spirit Mirror, or Barrel Behind the Door.

What Null and Void does is MODIFY the effect. It's like it adds the line, "Both players see the cards drawn by the effect and discard them all to the Graveyard."

So when you chain Null and Void to Sasuke's effect, it's like it now says "Your opponent draws until he or she has 7 cards. Both players see the cards drawn by the effect and discard them all to the Graveyard."

Oh, and since Null and Void modifies an effect, it follows the Counter-Trap rule of having to chain directly to the card it modifies.
 
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jdos said:
The way I see it, the cards in question are considered "drawn" until the effect of Null and Void essentially negates the fact that they were ever in your hand, and they are now treated as though they were not. Both effects resolve normally because at the time the cards were drawn S.S. #3's effect was satisfied.
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I couldn't agree more. No infinite loop here. Your opponent draws the required amount because of Sasuke Samurai #3's effect. His effect has now resolved. You activate Null and Void to, well, nullify the act of drawing. The cards just drawn are negated. Your opponent shows them to you, and bid them all farewell. Null and Void resolves at this point.
 
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kingpinopie said:
Hmmm... both are very valid points... I think that it could work, but it doesnt deck you out... Here is how I see it.. You attack the opponent with Sazuke Samurai #3 inflicting Damage to his/her lifepoints.... Samurai's Effect is now activated. Your opponent has 3 cards in hand, and must draw 4 cards. Those 4 cards go to the graveyard.....

Now, even though that SEEMS right, the problem lies in the fact that that the FAQ has 2 very interesting things to say about Null and Void
1.) The card(s) discarded by the effect of "Null and Void" are never treated as actually drawn, so they are considered sent from the Deck to the Graveyard.

2.)You can activate "Null and Void" during the Damage Step, for example against the effects of "Airknight Parshath", "Sasuke Samurai #3" or "Bistro Butcher

Now, in the FAQ it says NOTHING about Sasuke Samurai #3, only 1,2&4.... So therefore I would have to say that Konami / Upperdeck decided it doesnt need any ruling on right now....
Sasuke Samurai #3
When this card inflicts Battle Damage to your opponent's Life Points, your opponent draws until his/her hand has 7 cards.

Now, since there are no rulings.... and the Null and Void FaQ says you CAN chain tot he effect of Sasuke Samurai #3, but the cards never get treated as actually drawn, its sort of a double standard. However, since Sasuke Samurai's effect never gets satisfied, AND the FAQ says you CAN activate against Sasuke Samurai #3.... It is a legal combo.... but since those cards never get to reach the hand, you have to keep drawing till it IS SATISFIED... I would rule it a legal combo.

Now, if they DIDNT say that you CAN activate for his effect, i would rule more like the Horus vs Creature Swap combo... since it cannot satisfy the requirements, it wont work, but it DOES SAY you CAN activate it for Samurai's Effect... so i think it is a very deadly combo....sorta cheap till they change the FAQ,but Legal
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I think this is how it should be played out... . i dont know if it was noticed earlier... but i agree with Evil Fiberjar on this one.. the cards NEVER reach the hand due to Null and Void, so you never really stop drawing cuz you never get the required 7 cards in hand for SS #3's effect
 
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