StephenTheDarkBeing
New Member
Concerning cards with this rule, is it possible to flip summon such cards twice in the same turn, just so long as you leave it face-up at the end of that Main Phase?
"You can flip this card into face-down Defense Position once per turn..."
- Thread starter StephenTheDarkBeing
- Start date
Tonylaudat
New Member
What I don't get is why there seems to be two different sets of rules reguarding when monster effect with a "Once per turn limit" to its use gets reset. If I'm understanding everything correctly, then what has been said is that a monster like Chiron the Mage can get its effect resent by Book of Moon (flipping it face down), but a monster that flips itself face down (going through the same excat process with the expection that it used its own effect instead of the effect of another card) does not reset its effect.
Why is there a difference between these to cases? We have two cases of an almost identical process occuring, and yet we have two different results???
Personally, I think that the rule should be changed to either stated that you can reset monster effect when they are flipped face down, and have it apply to all monsters and all monster effects with the "once per turn" limitation, or have the rule state that flipping a monster face down does not reset the effect because the limitation upon the use of the effect is a condition that is not reset when the monster is flipped face down, and apply that rule to all stated monsters. I think that this would cut down on a lot of the confusion here.
Why is there a difference between these to cases? We have two cases of an almost identical process occuring, and yet we have two different results???
Personally, I think that the rule should be changed to either stated that you can reset monster effect when they are flipped face down, and have it apply to all monsters and all monster effects with the "once per turn" limitation, or have the rule state that flipping a monster face down does not reset the effect because the limitation upon the use of the effect is a condition that is not reset when the monster is flipped face down, and apply that rule to all stated monsters. I think that this would cut down on a lot of the confusion here.
That one effect currently is the exception to the rule of "once per turn" (as I said before they basically said that using the effect cannot reset the ability to use the effect).
Also Book of Moon doesn't clear all conditions, just most. After all, if you Change of Heart your opponent's monster and Moon it face down (and maybe flip it face up), the game doesn't forget that that card goes back to your opponent during the end phase.
Also Book of Moon doesn't clear all conditions, just most. After all, if you Change of Heart your opponent's monster and Moon it face down (and maybe flip it face up), the game doesn't forget that that card goes back to your opponent during the end phase.
Tonylaudat
New Member
So let me see if I understand you. You are saying that Chiron the Mage being able to reuse its effect is the only expection to the general rule that the "once per turn" limit upon a creatre's affect is not reset if it is flipped face down. If this is the case, then why if Chiron the Mage the expection to this rule?
chaosruler
New Member
Well, IMO, the Change of Heart thing is set up by Change of Heart, not by the monster. Also, I believe that Chiron isn't an exceptioas when you flip him face-down, he doesn't know he's a Chiron the Mage, let alone a Chiron who has used his effect. Just my 2 cents
-chaosruler
-chaosruler
No.
What I was saying was the monsters who can flip themselves face down by their own effect are the exception to the "once per turn" rule as far as having their effect reset.
Usually, monsters like Chiron, The Creator, BLS, TER, etc. can use their effect, flip them down and back up and they can use it again.
What I was saying was the monsters who can flip themselves face down by their own effect are the exception to the "once per turn" rule as far as having their effect reset.
Usually, monsters like Chiron, The Creator, BLS, TER, etc. can use their effect, flip them down and back up and they can use it again.
Ok this is starting to bug me. The only explanation I can come up with it that the "flip down" monsters are an exception to the rule. I'm going to post a question on the official rulings site and hopefully they can figure it out or give us a better explanation.
I don't see this as being an exception to the 'rule'... The reflippables have an effect which includes a restriction which comes into play once you have activated it and the effect resolves. Once the effect has resolved that card cannot be flipped face down again through the effect. The restriction due to the effect is in place after the effect has been used. (See Novastar's post).
With Densetsu_X's example, there is no fuel to the fire, because though Book of Moon was used on Guardian Sphinx, the effect has already been used, so the restriction is in place, and the effect cannot be used again.
The effect monsters that get reset do so because the condition is placed on 'this face up monster'. When flipped face down using Book of Moon it is a monster card, you can then flip summon it, and then use the monster effect - it is a newly summoned monster.
As per the Chiron rulings - this is a condition, whereas with the re-flippables it is part of the effect, so is in place as soon as the effect resolves.
Hm, That's about 4c worth.
With Densetsu_X's example, there is no fuel to the fire, because though Book of Moon was used on Guardian Sphinx, the effect has already been used, so the restriction is in place, and the effect cannot be used again.
The effect monsters that get reset do so because the condition is placed on 'this face up monster'. When flipped face down using Book of Moon it is a monster card, you can then flip summon it, and then use the monster effect - it is a newly summoned monster.
As per the Chiron rulings - this is a condition, whereas with the re-flippables it is part of the effect, so is in place as soon as the effect resolves.
Hm, That's about 4c worth.
Not to drag this thread out unnecessarily, but there appears to be simple logic behind this that I want to make clear.
The effects of these other monsters like Chiron for example, do not involve face-down positioning as part of their effect. So it doesn't matter that they get reset when they get flipped face-down.
The "re-flipp-ables" on the other hand directly involve being flipped face-down as part of thier effect. The effect text clearly states that you cannot flip them back face-down once you've flipped them down this turn using this effect. Flipping them face-down saistfies the portion of the effect "once-per-turn" directly.
You can't reset the nature of an effect that involves flipping itself face-down by flipping it face-down. Anymore then you could reset the effect of Chiron the Mage's effect of discarding a Spell Card by the discard of that Spell Card. Forget the fact that tha most effects reset whn flipped down. The fact that being flipped face-down is part of the effect makes that part of the mechanic meaningless.
The effects of these other monsters like Chiron for example, do not involve face-down positioning as part of their effect. So it doesn't matter that they get reset when they get flipped face-down.
The "re-flipp-ables" on the other hand directly involve being flipped face-down as part of thier effect. The effect text clearly states that you cannot flip them back face-down once you've flipped them down this turn using this effect. Flipping them face-down saistfies the portion of the effect "once-per-turn" directly.
You can't reset the nature of an effect that involves flipping itself face-down by flipping it face-down. Anymore then you could reset the effect of Chiron the Mage's effect of discarding a Spell Card by the discard of that Spell Card. Forget the fact that tha most effects reset whn flipped down. The fact that being flipped face-down is part of the effect makes that part of the mechanic meaningless.
chaosruler
New Member
yeah, thanks for the explanation Andrew, I was trying to say something along those lines, but I'm not thinking straight. Lack of central A/C is killing me.
-chaosruler
-chaosruler
Tonylaudat
New Member
I don't see how you are "reseting the nature of the effect" by flipping the monster face down with its own effect. What in theory you would be reseting is the condition that its effect could only be used once per turn. This condition is not part of the effect itself, as clearly stated in the rulings for Chiron the Mage, so if this condition can be reset by Book of Moon, what is the difference between that and a monster that flips itself facedown.
Lets explore this... According to the ruling that was used to explian why if I steal an opponets monster with Snatch Steal, and then flip it face down with an effect (either its, or another cards), I get to keep it (which for the record I still don't believe is supported by game mechanics) the newly flipped face down monster becomes an unknown, simply a face down monster. Using this logic, there is no way for this face down monster to know that it can flip itself face down, let alone that its effect has a restriction placed upon its use. Thus if flipped face up again in the same turn, it would be as if it was summoned to the field for the first time by the player who had flipped it face down. How then can the once per turn restriction still be in place for a monster that flipped itself facedown, but not for a monster that was flipped face down by an outside card effect.
Aslo, I don't see how allowing this to occur (and thus simplifying the rules a great deal) would hurt the game, as you would not be able to flip summon a re-flippable monster twice in one turn, as you would have to manually change its battle position twice (both times from facedown defense to face up attack). We know that flip summoning a monster counts as a position change in that you can't the chain that same monster into face up defense poisition, the it couldn't be done twice in one turn even with "Ultimate Offering on the field".
Lets explore this... According to the ruling that was used to explian why if I steal an opponets monster with Snatch Steal, and then flip it face down with an effect (either its, or another cards), I get to keep it (which for the record I still don't believe is supported by game mechanics) the newly flipped face down monster becomes an unknown, simply a face down monster. Using this logic, there is no way for this face down monster to know that it can flip itself face down, let alone that its effect has a restriction placed upon its use. Thus if flipped face up again in the same turn, it would be as if it was summoned to the field for the first time by the player who had flipped it face down. How then can the once per turn restriction still be in place for a monster that flipped itself facedown, but not for a monster that was flipped face down by an outside card effect.
Aslo, I don't see how allowing this to occur (and thus simplifying the rules a great deal) would hurt the game, as you would not be able to flip summon a re-flippable monster twice in one turn, as you would have to manually change its battle position twice (both times from facedown defense to face up attack). We know that flip summoning a monster counts as a position change in that you can't the chain that same monster into face up defense poisition, the it couldn't be done twice in one turn even with "Ultimate Offering on the field".
You could think of it like Last Will (the effect results in a state whereby... even when the card is in the graveyard), or the effect of a monster that is no longer on the field. The effect is still active - so once you have activated the effect of a card that flips it face down, the restriction is still 'on the field' - it is in play.
EDIT: The restriction is part of the effect, and is still in play despite the card being facedown now.
EDIT: The restriction is part of the effect, and is still in play despite the card being facedown now.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning
1st effect:
(Once during each of your turns"¦)- Remove 1 monster on the field from play. If you activate this effect, this card cannot attack during this turn
If you this effect, flip it face-down then face-up you can use its effect again, because it gets reset, or does it?
If you attack with it and flip it face-down then back face-up you can't activate this effect, because a monster doesn't forget that it attacked.
Now similarly shouldn't the reverse be true? If you activate its effect then flip it face-down then into attack position, it shouldn't forget that it can't attack. You're given an "attack property" for each monster and you pay it when you declare attack, only a replay can refund it. But the BLS effect eats up that property, and its unable to attack again. You can't attack a second time (except by an effect) because that cost is lost and gone forever. Similarly, this effect of BLS eats up the property, so its attack for that turn is gone. So the first effect of BLS doesn't completely reset when its flipped face-down.
There are simply some effects that the very nature of them can't be reset. Not all effects are the same, even if they fall in the same category e.g. Most trigger effects wait for a new chain to activate, but the Archfiends don't wait, and can't be chained to, and Big/Mid Shield Gardna doesn't wait for a new chain, it places itself right away on the current one.
And the ruling suggests that the nature of the "Flip this card face-down once per turn" can't be reset either.
1st effect:
(Once during each of your turns"¦)- Remove 1 monster on the field from play. If you activate this effect, this card cannot attack during this turn
If you this effect, flip it face-down then face-up you can use its effect again, because it gets reset, or does it?
If you attack with it and flip it face-down then back face-up you can't activate this effect, because a monster doesn't forget that it attacked.
Now similarly shouldn't the reverse be true? If you activate its effect then flip it face-down then into attack position, it shouldn't forget that it can't attack. You're given an "attack property" for each monster and you pay it when you declare attack, only a replay can refund it. But the BLS effect eats up that property, and its unable to attack again. You can't attack a second time (except by an effect) because that cost is lost and gone forever. Similarly, this effect of BLS eats up the property, so its attack for that turn is gone. So the first effect of BLS doesn't completely reset when its flipped face-down.
There are simply some effects that the very nature of them can't be reset. Not all effects are the same, even if they fall in the same category e.g. Most trigger effects wait for a new chain to activate, but the Archfiends don't wait, and can't be chained to, and Big/Mid Shield Gardna doesn't wait for a new chain, it places itself right away on the current one.
And the ruling suggests that the nature of the "Flip this card face-down once per turn" can't be reset either.
Tonylaudat
New Member
First of all, the restriction is not part of the effect, as clearly stated in the ruling for Chiron the Mage (unless that is the only card for which that is true in which case, it should be the only one that has its effect(with limintation) reset.
According to the ruling on Snatch Steal Vs reflippables, as I stated eariler, the face down monster becomes and unknown (which yes, means that BLS could in theory remove a monster and attack in the same turn). The is no way that an unknown can remember if it attacked, used an ability, etc. What DaGuyWitBluGlasses said about BLS, is one example of why I believe that that ruling is not supported by the mechanics of the game, and should never have been made.
The reason I brought up that ruling was to illustrate a point: If a monster becomes an unknown when it is flipped face down, then it must always be an unknown. However there are cases such as this, when we calim that the monster is not an unknown. If this is the case with monsters that flip themselves face down, in which there is a restriction on use of its effect, and BLS, then why is this not the case with a card like Chiron the Mage. Wouldn't it be simpler to have a rule that states that the "once per turn limit" (or other limitation) upon a monster's effect is part of the effect, that is not reset when it is flipped facedown, and simply apply that rule to all monsters. It seems like a direct contradiction to have a rule that some monsters get their effect reset when they are flipped facedown, while others don't. I believe that on general ruling on this on way or the other that affected all monster card would be a step towards making the game easier for everyone to understand.
According to the ruling on Snatch Steal Vs reflippables, as I stated eariler, the face down monster becomes and unknown (which yes, means that BLS could in theory remove a monster and attack in the same turn). The is no way that an unknown can remember if it attacked, used an ability, etc. What DaGuyWitBluGlasses said about BLS, is one example of why I believe that that ruling is not supported by the mechanics of the game, and should never have been made.
The reason I brought up that ruling was to illustrate a point: If a monster becomes an unknown when it is flipped face down, then it must always be an unknown. However there are cases such as this, when we calim that the monster is not an unknown. If this is the case with monsters that flip themselves face down, in which there is a restriction on use of its effect, and BLS, then why is this not the case with a card like Chiron the Mage. Wouldn't it be simpler to have a rule that states that the "once per turn limit" (or other limitation) upon a monster's effect is part of the effect, that is not reset when it is flipped facedown, and simply apply that rule to all monsters. It seems like a direct contradiction to have a rule that some monsters get their effect reset when they are flipped facedown, while others don't. I believe that on general ruling on this on way or the other that affected all monster card would be a step towards making the game easier for everyone to understand.
A monster flipped face down does not disconnect itself from all facts and game conditions. A monster special summoned and then turned face down is still a special summoned monster. A monster targeted by Change of Heart is still returned even if it has been turned face down. A monster that has already attacked does not get to attack again if it has been turned face down and back up again. A monster special summoned with Return from the Different Dimension is still removed in the End Phase even if it were turned face down.
In the end the game designer wanted most effect monsters to reset when turned face down. He apparently did not want that to be the case with the reflippables since as Digital Jedi so eloquently stated their effect is to turn themselves face down and thus it would be silly to even bother with the wording (can only be used once per turn) if by using the effect you would reset that condition every time. Thus this group of effect monster specifically does not reset the single use condition when flipped face down. As this is the only exception that I can think of to the standard "reset" of use restriction when turned face down I don't think the game is in a quagmire over which effects do or don't reset.
In the end the game designer wanted most effect monsters to reset when turned face down. He apparently did not want that to be the case with the reflippables since as Digital Jedi so eloquently stated their effect is to turn themselves face down and thus it would be silly to even bother with the wording (can only be used once per turn) if by using the effect you would reset that condition every time. Thus this group of effect monster specifically does not reset the single use condition when flipped face down. As this is the only exception that I can think of to the standard "reset" of use restriction when turned face down I don't think the game is in a quagmire over which effects do or don't reset.
Tonylaudat
New Member
anthonyj said,
"A monster flipped face down does not disconnect itself from all facts and game conditions. A monster special summoned and then turned face down is still a special summoned monster. A monster targeted by Change of Heart is still returned even if it has been turned face down. A monster that has already attacked does not get to attack again if it has been turned face down and back up again. A monster special summoned with Return from the Different Dimension is still removed in the End Phase even if it were turned face down."
Ture a monster that is flipped face down, does not disconnect itself from all game facts and conditions, but it certinally does disconnect itself from some of them. For example, the ruling for Magical Scientist says "If the Fusion Monster is flipped face-down with "Book of Moon", or removed from play with "Dimensionhole" or "Interdimensional Matter Transporter" or "Different Dimension Gate", the effect is reset and the Fusion Monster does not go back to the Fusion Deck, and is not prohibited from attacking your opponent's Life Points directly."
Other things that a monster flipped will become disconnect from are its level (can't morph it), its stats (Acid Trap Hole, and Deck Devistation Virus have to check to see if the facedown monster is destoried by their effects), its attribue (Mystical Plasma Zone does not alter the stats of a face down dark type monster), and possibly its type (although I don't believe there is a card yet that checks face down monsters for their types). It then would probably be more accurate to that a face down monster is an unknown as far as other cards effects are concerned.
anthonyj also said
"In the end the game designer wanted most effect monsters to reset when turned face down. He apparently did not want that to be the case with the reflippables since as Digital Jedi so eloquently stated their effect is to turn themselves face down and thus it would be silly to even bother with the wording (can only be used once per turn) if by using the effect you would reset that condition every time. Thus this group of effect monster specifically does not reset the single use condition when flipped face down. As this is the only exception that I can think of to the standard "reset" of use restriction when turned face down I don't think the game is in a quagmire over which effects do or don't reset."
If the game designer had intended the rules to be the way in which you are arguing the are now, then why didn't the game designer write that in directly to the effects of the cards themselves (either by adding the fact that a monster like Chiron the Mage will have its ability reset upon being flipped face down, or by stating that a re-flippable monster will not have its effect reset by flipping itself face down ). Aslo, I am going to assume that you meant monster with the once per turn restriction place upon their effects (as most effect monster do not have this condition).
How do you know that the game designer was/is thinking? Have you heard this from the game designer himself? Have you ever talked to the game designer about this? Even assuming that this is what the game designer was/is thinking at this excat moment, how do you know that he won't change his mind in the future, (or even if he is directly involved in making rulings for that matter) as the game is always in the process of evolving?
Finally, why are re-flippables excluded from having their effects reset when they are flipped face down. It can't have anything to do with their effect, since it has been clearly stated already, that the once per turn restriction placed upon their effect is a conditon, not part of the effect itself. That being the case, the question that need to be answered here is does a monster that is flipped face down after have used an effect with a once per turn restriction upon it, disconnect itself from that fact. If it does, then that should be the case with all such mosnters (also, let me remind everyone that you still would not be able to flip summon the same monster twice in one turn, as that would be manually changing its battle position twice in one turn). If it does not, then that should be the case for all such monsters. Personally, I don't care which one is ruled to be the case, as long as we stop having rules with expections where they do not need to exist.
"A monster flipped face down does not disconnect itself from all facts and game conditions. A monster special summoned and then turned face down is still a special summoned monster. A monster targeted by Change of Heart is still returned even if it has been turned face down. A monster that has already attacked does not get to attack again if it has been turned face down and back up again. A monster special summoned with Return from the Different Dimension is still removed in the End Phase even if it were turned face down."
Ture a monster that is flipped face down, does not disconnect itself from all game facts and conditions, but it certinally does disconnect itself from some of them. For example, the ruling for Magical Scientist says "If the Fusion Monster is flipped face-down with "Book of Moon", or removed from play with "Dimensionhole" or "Interdimensional Matter Transporter" or "Different Dimension Gate", the effect is reset and the Fusion Monster does not go back to the Fusion Deck, and is not prohibited from attacking your opponent's Life Points directly."
Other things that a monster flipped will become disconnect from are its level (can't morph it), its stats (Acid Trap Hole, and Deck Devistation Virus have to check to see if the facedown monster is destoried by their effects), its attribue (Mystical Plasma Zone does not alter the stats of a face down dark type monster), and possibly its type (although I don't believe there is a card yet that checks face down monsters for their types). It then would probably be more accurate to that a face down monster is an unknown as far as other cards effects are concerned.
anthonyj also said
"In the end the game designer wanted most effect monsters to reset when turned face down. He apparently did not want that to be the case with the reflippables since as Digital Jedi so eloquently stated their effect is to turn themselves face down and thus it would be silly to even bother with the wording (can only be used once per turn) if by using the effect you would reset that condition every time. Thus this group of effect monster specifically does not reset the single use condition when flipped face down. As this is the only exception that I can think of to the standard "reset" of use restriction when turned face down I don't think the game is in a quagmire over which effects do or don't reset."
If the game designer had intended the rules to be the way in which you are arguing the are now, then why didn't the game designer write that in directly to the effects of the cards themselves (either by adding the fact that a monster like Chiron the Mage will have its ability reset upon being flipped face down, or by stating that a re-flippable monster will not have its effect reset by flipping itself face down ). Aslo, I am going to assume that you meant monster with the once per turn restriction place upon their effects (as most effect monster do not have this condition).
How do you know that the game designer was/is thinking? Have you heard this from the game designer himself? Have you ever talked to the game designer about this? Even assuming that this is what the game designer was/is thinking at this excat moment, how do you know that he won't change his mind in the future, (or even if he is directly involved in making rulings for that matter) as the game is always in the process of evolving?
Finally, why are re-flippables excluded from having their effects reset when they are flipped face down. It can't have anything to do with their effect, since it has been clearly stated already, that the once per turn restriction placed upon their effect is a conditon, not part of the effect itself. That being the case, the question that need to be answered here is does a monster that is flipped face down after have used an effect with a once per turn restriction upon it, disconnect itself from that fact. If it does, then that should be the case with all such mosnters (also, let me remind everyone that you still would not be able to flip summon the same monster twice in one turn, as that would be manually changing its battle position twice in one turn). If it does not, then that should be the case for all such monsters. Personally, I don't care which one is ruled to be the case, as long as we stop having rules with expections where they do not need to exist.
As Novastar said previously: "In reality, you are correct, it should be reset. Konami/UDE simply decided that you couldn't use it twice in one turn, there is no actual logic that you can use.
The only "real" answer would be to say, that because the effect specifically deals with a Battle Position change it was a measure put in to avoid abuse."
When one encounters a situation such as this, as has been seen with cards like Legendary Fisherman, you are stuck with BKSS (because Konami said so). Upperdeck gets their rulings from Konami, Konami's rulings come ultimately from the game designer since it is his game and he gets to decide what rulings we shall live by. He has made his intention clear as concerns this issue as we have been instructed that this is how the reflippable monsters operate by "Official Ruling".
And yes rulings sometimes change, whether it is a misunderstanding between Upperdeck and Konami, or it is even possible that Kazuki Takahashi makes a decision that a specific ruling or game mechanic is in fact in need of change.
If you are looking for absolute clarity and no exceptions to rules obviously Yugioh is not going to fulfill those wishes. We still have critical level issues with no resolution in site. Meanwhile we do our very best to adhere to the rulings that we do have and attempt to educate the players as to what those actual rulings are.
The only "real" answer would be to say, that because the effect specifically deals with a Battle Position change it was a measure put in to avoid abuse."
When one encounters a situation such as this, as has been seen with cards like Legendary Fisherman, you are stuck with BKSS (because Konami said so). Upperdeck gets their rulings from Konami, Konami's rulings come ultimately from the game designer since it is his game and he gets to decide what rulings we shall live by. He has made his intention clear as concerns this issue as we have been instructed that this is how the reflippable monsters operate by "Official Ruling".
And yes rulings sometimes change, whether it is a misunderstanding between Upperdeck and Konami, or it is even possible that Kazuki Takahashi makes a decision that a specific ruling or game mechanic is in fact in need of change.
If you are looking for absolute clarity and no exceptions to rules obviously Yugioh is not going to fulfill those wishes. We still have critical level issues with no resolution in site. Meanwhile we do our very best to adhere to the rulings that we do have and attempt to educate the players as to what those actual rulings are.
krazykidpsx
New Member
hey i was wondering. Golem Sentry doesnt state "Once per turn during your turn" or "once per turn during your main phase" would that imply that you can use its effect during opposing players turn?