About Bait Doll

A

antilegend

New Member
Bait Doll
(Labyrinth of Nightmare)
Force the activation of 1 face-down Trap Card. If the timing of the activation of the Trap Card is incorrect, negate the effect and destroy it. If it is not a Trap Card, it is returned to its original position. After this card is activated, it is placed into the Deck (not the Graveyard). Then shuffle the Deck.

1) If Bait Doll did not force the activation of a card (the card is chained, destroyed by MST, etc.), did it return to the deck?
2) You can activate Bait Doll on YOUR OWN trap card so you don't have to pay the cost, right? (e.g. Return from the Other Dimension)
3) If you activate Bait Doll on a face-up Trap card that is set previously in the same turn (e.g. Opponent's Trap set by Dust Turnado or you own Trap set previously), will it be considered "Incorrect Timing" and get destroyed?

Thx for the answers~
 
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I thought that was what the Engish rulings do as well. No activation cost for Skill Drain, Return from the Different Dimension, etc.

What I think you're going for is the question about activating Bait Doll on Elemental Burst. See the lengthy discussion about this in another recent thread here. But I for one believe that what I said above stands true, and as far as I know that's how it works.


daivahataka said:
Actually the real fun lies in that
0/x = 0
x/0 = infinity
x/x = 1

So what does 0/0 equal? :D
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0 divided by 42 = 0
42 divided by 0 tends to infinity
42 divided by 42 = 1

Therefore the answer is 42. It always is.

Really, the operation "divide by 0" is flawed in that is can't happen and is logically impossible (and I don't mean the quantum mechanical meaning of "impossible" which equates to "just very unlikely").

Although I stand by the answer that 42 divided by 0 is equal to 0, with a remainder of 42. Try picturing it as a cake. Split a cake equally between no people. Can't be done. You're left with one cake over, and no people get an equal share, which is what you wanted. All the more for yourself ^_^
 
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It could also be 6, with a remainder of 42. Or 977 with a remainder of 42. Or -9 3/4 with a remainder of 42. Or i*pi^2 with a remainder of 42. Aka: Indeterminent. It will diverge to infinity (or negative infinity) only in a limit function.

But no in most cases, you don't have to pay the activation cost so if you dropped it on Miracle Restoring, you don't need to remove 2 Spell Counters to reborn a Dark Magician or a Buster Blader.
 
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densetsu_x said:
So what you're saying is that while Bait Doll doesn't require you to pay the costs to force the activation of the trap card, you would have to have been able to pay them if you decided to manually activate the trap card?
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I can't tell you. I don't know what you just said.

If there is an activation cost, that card is negated and destroyed. Unless, I'm guessing, it's something like Wall of Revealing Light.

Here's the relevent text (underlined):
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/puppiy/rule/spell/s1/Normal_A37.htm

発動タイミングが正しくない・コストが払えない・対象が存在しない場合は無効。そのカードを破壊する。
※発動タイミングが正しくないもの
・伏せて１ターン経過していない罠（「王家の神殿」が発揮されている場合除く）
・発動条件が攻撃宣言の罠（「聖なるバリア－ミラー・フォース」等）
・発動条件が召喚行為の罠（「落とし穴」等）
・発動条件が揃っていない罠（「避雷針」「強制接収」「死のデッキ破壊ウィルス」等）
・カウンター罠（「神の宣告」等）
・罠の効果対象が存在しなかった場合（「光の封札剣」「破壊輪」等）・「王宮のお触れ」が場にある時でも罠を強制発動することができる。（効果は無効）
・「人造人間－サイコ・ショッカー」が場にある時でも強制発動できる。（効果は無効）
★相手の場に「人造人間－サイコ・ショッカー」と伏せてある「魔法除去細菌兵器」
「おとり人形」で「魔法除去細菌兵器」指定し強制発動させる場合、「魔法除去細菌兵器」の発動コストとして「人造人間－サイコ・ショッカー」を生け贄にしたら効果は有効？
 
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Not true, as far as I know. As mentioned above a few times, Bait Doll can successfully force Skill Drain, a Continuous Trap with a cost. You don't have to pay the cost (nor are you allowed to if you did want to), but Skill Drain stays face-up on the field with its effect activated.

As for forcing a Trap Card if you can't pay the activation cost (Life Points, Tributing monsters, discarding, etc.), as long as the first line doesn't say "<do this> to activate this card." then you don't pay the cost and the Trap will activate properly anyway. Unless it has bad timing (Mirror Force, par exemple).

But concerning cards that do say "...to activate this card.", I'm not sure. As I know, the only cards that say this are:

Archfiend's Roar
Assault on GHQ
Battle-Scarred
Elemental Burst
Ninjitsu Art of Decoy
Rope of Life
Taunt

The last two in bold couldn't be forced successfully due to bad timing. As for the others, I assume that they couldn't be forced successfully because their costs weren't paid (nor were allowed to be paid thanks to Bait Doll). Therefore their activation requirements weren't met, and they can't be activated successfully.
 
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Another card I was thinking of (I'm surprised it didn't hit me before). Is Soul Demolition

Soul Demolition
Continuous Trap

You can only activate this card's effect when you have a Fiend-Type monster on your side of the field. Pay 500 Life Points to use this effect. Both players select 1 Monster Card from their opponent's Graveyard. Remove the selected cards from play.

I believe this is another case like Elemental Burst. For Soul Demolition, you have two apects to its activation. You have the activation requirement (that a fiend monster be on your side of the field) and an activation cost (paying 500 life points). I understand there is a period between these two, but I still think that they apply to the activation.

So if this card was face down and triggered by Bait Doll and there wasn't a fiend on the field, its timing would be incorrect and be destroyed. If there was a fiend on the field when it was triggered, then each person could remove a monster in the other's graveyard from play and the player controlling Demolition wouldn't have to pay the 500 LPs.
 
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Netrep 6.0b said:
If "Bait Doll" targets a Trap Card that was Set the turn "Bait Doll" is activated, the Trap Card is considered illegally activated and is
immediately destroyed. If "Bait Doll" targets a Trap Card with an Activation cost, the Activation cost does not have to be paid. If
"Bait Doll's" effect is negated, it does not return to the owner's deck.
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That is not clear proof that Bait Doll allows one to dodge the cost. What was the email it came from?

Maruno said:
So you're implying that they have changed the ruling, then? Do tell.
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I don't see any ruling on the site saying that it was ever otherwise. In fact, I tried to find that ruling in January. Apparently, I couldn't.

Dillie-O said:
Another card I was thinking of (I'm surprised it didn't hit me before). Is Soul Demolition

Soul Demolition
Continuous Trap

You can only activate this card's effect when you have a Fiend-Type monster on your side of the field. Pay 500 Life Points to use this effect. Both players select 1 Monster Card from their opponent's Graveyard. Remove the selected cards from play.

I believe this is another case like Elemental Burst. For Soul Demolition, you have two apects to its activation. You have the activation requirement (that a fiend monster be on your side of the field) and an activation cost (paying 500 life points). I understand there is a period between these two, but I still think that they apply to the activation.

So if this card was face down and triggered by Bait Doll and there wasn't a fiend on the field, its timing would be incorrect and be destroyed. If there was a fiend on the field when it was triggered, then each person could remove a monster in the other's graveyard from play and the player controlling Demolition wouldn't have to pay the 500 LPs.
Click to expand...

Way off. The activation of the card is not the activation of the effect, and Bait Doll activates the card, not the effect. Bait Doll can't do anything to or about the effect of the card.
 
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John Danker said:
It seems we're at a point where we could use some official clarification. Has anyone posted to the judge's board with this yet?
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Well it would be nice... but im not holding my breath...

Honestly, it looks like a misunderstanding here, and lack of clarification. Continuous Card activation is very different from Non-Continuous Card activation.

That seems to be where the confusion is here.
 
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Yes, this thread kind of forked along another thread entitled " Is Bait Doll useless or 1 step from God like???" http://www.cogonline.net/threads.10881 On Page two Fiendish Envoy was nice enough to have sent an e-mail out and this was the response given. I decided to quote it here to prevent digging.

Fiendish Envoy said:
Hey Steve,

Can Bait Doll force the activation of Elemental Burst? Or, is Elemental Burst considered to have an activation requirement (making the timing illegal)?

Elemental Burst

Tribute 1 each of WIND, WATER, FIRE, and EARTH monsters on your side of the field to activate this card. Destroy all cards on your opponent's side of the field.

Thanks,

Stephen

Answer:

If the controller of "Elemental Burst" doesn't have the four required monsters to Tribute, then "Elemental Burst"'s activation timing is off, and it will be destroyed.
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Hopefully to recap quickly, we all know that Activation Costs aren't paid for Bait Doll, which at the outset would make it look like Elemental Burst would get its effect for free. However, densetsu_x and a few others weren't quite convinced and the e-mail we got back seems to have solidfied it.

However, it almost seems like there is a "third" category that arises with trap activations. Those with costs, those with requirements, and now those with cost/requirements or something along those lines (such as Rope of Life).

I see now how my Soul Demolition example is different, but where does that leave us?
 
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You think if Bait Doll could bypass cost, it would not be more popular?

Dillie-O said:
However, it almost seems like there is a "third" category that arises with trap activations. Those with costs, those with requirements, and now those with cost/requirements or something along those lines (such as Rope of Life).
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Costs are PART of the requirements. What's so HARD ABOUT THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT THAT HAS BEEN WITH THE GAME SINCE THE WHOLE THING STARTED?!?
 
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