About Bait Doll

A

antilegend

New Member
Bait Doll
(Labyrinth of Nightmare)
Force the activation of 1 face-down Trap Card. If the timing of the activation of the Trap Card is incorrect, negate the effect and destroy it. If it is not a Trap Card, it is returned to its original position. After this card is activated, it is placed into the Deck (not the Graveyard). Then shuffle the Deck.

1) If Bait Doll did not force the activation of a card (the card is chained, destroyed by MST, etc.), did it return to the deck?
2) You can activate Bait Doll on YOUR OWN trap card so you don't have to pay the cost, right? (e.g. Return from the Other Dimension)
3) If you activate Bait Doll on a face-up Trap card that is set previously in the same turn (e.g. Opponent's Trap set by Dust Turnado or you own Trap set previously), will it be considered "Incorrect Timing" and get destroyed?

Thx for the answers~
 
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Dude, you seriously need to calm down. There's no reason to start yelling. We're all trying to figure out the same thing from the same information. Everyone has different opinions and thought processes, so not everyone will immediately think or agree or believe what you believe. It's just a game.
 
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Well, I'll put a little technical thought and a little metagame thought into this one... Bait Doll came out in the Labyrinth of Nightmare set, and if I remember correctly, the whole metagame at the time focused more around Yata Garasu and Mystical Space Typhoon in triplicate, so the need for Bait Doll wasn't there.

Now with more emphasis on spells in the game and more devastating traps available AND the lack of MST, more trap negation is being looked for. When Bait Doll did start to see the attention of some folks, the Netrep files had drafted the instance about cost, and UDE eventually published some rulings. I'm fuzzy as to what the timeline on this was. However, if you ask me, the problem was that they didn't quite cover all the bases with this. In particular is the ruling:

If "Bait Doll" is activated and targets "Magic Jammer", "Magic Drain", etc. the opponent may chain the Trap Card to negate and destroy "Bait Doll". If he / she does not, the Trap Card will be destroyed since the activation timing is incorrect, and "Bait Doll" will be shuffled into your Deck.

We know the deal about Imperial Order because there is no cost. We understand in this ruling that Magic Jammer/Drain, if not chained falls under the "incorrect timing" portion of the card due to the fact that Bait Doll is resolving at that point. However, what didn't happen in this ruling was to step us through the activation cost for Magic Jammer/Drain.

And to some extent that is what's causing the confusion today. Most people don't have access to the Netrep files, and there is no mention of costs on the UDE rulings page, so we're left in a quandary. I personally would have liked a little more info on the mechanics of Bait Doll in the response Envoy got, but I also understand those guys go through tons of e-mail a day, so they need to keep the answers sufficient unless we ask for more mechanics behind the card itself.

Anyway, that's my 10 bits on it.

P.S. Would it warrant an e-mail to the judges list to maybe summarize our concerns and see if we can get a little more info back on the mechanics surrounding Bait Doll?
 
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Oh, I totally understand that the Netreps are out of date but there are still a lot of rulings that still hold, regardless if they are Netrep or not.

I don't care who is right, I'm just trying to figure out the mechanics of the thing. I've had a personal attachment to this card since it came out and I still don't have it down, kinda frustrating 8^D Every time I see questions about it, the rulings seem to bounce back and forth. I think through this we're finally at a place where it can get solidified.
 
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Raijinili said:
You have rulings that DON'T say you can't do it. I have rulings saying that you can't do it. Who has the stronger position?

And the Netrepâ„¢ Files are outdated anyway.
Click to expand...

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4551

DIRECTLY FROM CURTIS SCHULTZ IN UDE:

----------------------------------------------------------

Does a player have to pay the cost for the activation of a Trap Card that is forced to activate from Bait Doll?


Thanks
Alejandro Quintero Acevedo
Judge in Yu-Gi-Oh! Rules Knowledge Level 2
Judge in VS System Rules Knowledge Level 1




Answer:

You do not pay the activation cost of Traps "Bait Doll" forces to activate.

---------------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrepâ„¢
CurtisSchultz_netrep@Hotmail.com

This was the ruling on costs.
 
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Yep, I think the struggle now is that does this non-payment of activation costs make the timing of the card become incorrect provided there are no other timing issues involved, or does it grant a "free play."

I went ahead and put together a semi-lenghty letter going over some of the options and asking for some more feedback. Hopefully we'll get a response to help us fill in the blanks.
 
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I sent a message to the judge list about 3 days ago asking for a mechanics explanation of all the cards listed in this post. I don't know if I worded the way all here was stating since everyone is using different terminology or has a different thought process but the jist was the same. Keep your fingers crossed we get an answer.
 
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anthonyj said:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4551

DIRECTLY FROM CURTIS SCHULTZ IN UDE:

----------------------------------------------------------

Does a player have to pay the cost for the activation of a Trap Card that is forced to activate from Bait Doll?


Thanks
Alejandro Quintero Acevedo
Judge in Yu-Gi-Oh! Rules Knowledge Level 2
Judge in VS System Rules Knowledge Level 1




Answer:

You do not pay the activation cost of Traps "Bait Doll" forces to activate.

---------------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrepâ„¢
CurtisSchultz_netrep@Hotmail.com

This was the ruling on costs.
Click to expand...
Okay. So either you really have no idea what's going on, or... what?

This, at best, IMPLIES that the card which has not had its cost paid can resolve properly. Which leaves your position at the exact same place that it was with just the Netrep File rulings.

All it did was confirm that the old ruling, which "doesn't say you can't", is reiterated in more recent times. It still doesn't confirm that you CAN.
 
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anthonyj said:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4551

DIRECTLY FROM CURTIS SCHULTZ IN UDE:

----------------------------------------------------------

Does a player have to pay the cost for the activation of a Trap Card that is forced to activate from Bait Doll?


Thanks
Alejandro Quintero Acevedo
Judge in Yu-Gi-Oh! Rules Knowledge Level 2
Judge in VS System Rules Knowledge Level 1




Answer:

You do not pay the activation cost of Traps "Bait Doll" forces to activate.

---------------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrepâ„¢
CurtisSchultz_netrep@Hotmail.com

This was the ruling on costs.
Click to expand...
Even if you couldn't use Bait Doll to circumvent the activation costs intentionally (still unsure myself but can only wait and hope for an official stance from UDE), this would still apply so as to prevent your opponent having to pay the cost for an incorrectly timed trap from which they could gain no benefit.
 
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This has to be one of those cards in the set that is just not clear in what it can and can't do. I think the timing issue is the problem as it doesn't quite seem to explain what it means by timing, does it mean the timing of the card during a particular phase, when it is has just been set. Also the costs does seem to be a problem as well. Let me give a few examples of cards I think that would be affected by this and to see if I am wrong.

Mirror Force, I gather would be an incorrect timing since you are activating outside of the battle phase so would be negated and destroyed.

Bottomless Trap Hole, is a tough one for me, I'm guessing no but I would also guess it would depending on when it is activated. If a player activates Bait Doll against this, I assume the summon would have already happened meaning the timing is missed and the card is negated and destroyed.

Ring of Destruction, since Ring of Destruction can be activated at anytime I am assuming this card can't really be negated by Bait Doll as anytime is fine as long as it is not during the damage step. So the activation would happen and a face up target would have to be chosen but if there isn't one its effect would miss and the card is destroyed and sent to the graveyard.

Magic Cylinder, again a card that would be negated and destroyed since the effect only happens during the battle phase and since it was forced by Bait Doll, it would be negated and destroyed.

Torrential Tribute, another toughie, I am guessing that this card would miss the timing since it only activates when a monster card is summoned so it would be negated and destroyed.

So am I wrong or right in what I have said, can you please clarify because I am thinking of deck to take advantage of this card.
 
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By the term "timing" they mean in general all activation requirements need for the effect to work.

With the exception if Ring of Destruction, all the other cards have a specific response timing and would negated by Bait Doll.

In the case of Ring, it will only be negated in the event that a face-up legal target is not available.

The cost issue im commenting on, because i don't have it 100% ironed out in my head.
 
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I believe that if return targets a card with a cost, as long as the cost could be met, it should not be paid, because this is the ruling given by UDE on the matter. I also believe to go along with that because it is ruled that cost does not have to be paid, rather than it is ruled because cost is not paid the timing is incorrect, the effect of the card should go through. This is just my belief, and because this is up for discussion I thought that I would put this out there.

One other thing I just want to make sure about with Bait Doll:
if you target a trap that targets, the person who would control the trap normally still targets what they decide, right? I'm pretty sure about this, I just want to make 100$ sure.
 
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Not fully reading through the many other pages that have come since my last post, I thought it was already understood that the "cost" only applied for effects that needed a payment to make the effect activate, like "Wall of Revealing Light".

In the case of WoRL, the cost payment determines the point at which your opponent cannot attack you if his monsters fall beneath the payment. 2000 life points paid, only attackers of 2000+ can attack.

Since cost are not paid, you cannot activate WoRL's "effect", although it would still be flipped face-up and not destroyed, it would remain on the field meaninglessly.

Raigeki Break would activate without having to discard a card. You can chain and destroy any card on the field since cost do not have to be paid. The value of activating your own Raigeki Break can be a good or bad thing. You are still basically sending a card as a cost, but it goes back to your deck to be reshuffled into it. So you dont lose a card, but maybe you lose out on a good draw.
 
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You still say that costs aren't paid, and I still say the effects don't come out.

I stated many times that the only evidence for the UDE game is not-not supporting evidence, which is very weak evidence for the "Effects still activate" side. I, on the other hand, have a JERP ruling.

The Wall of Revealing Light ruling is special because the cost of the card is variable. It is forced into a special case that is not considered illegal.
 
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Raijinili said:
You still say that costs aren't paid, and I still say the effects don't come out.

I stated many times that the only evidence for the UDE game is not-not supporting evidence, which is very weak evidence for the "Effects still activate" side. I, on the other hand, have a JERP ruling.

The Wall of Revealing Light ruling is special because the cost of the card is variable. It is forced into a special case that is not considered illegal.
Click to expand...
What about "Judgment of Anubis"??? It says that if Anubis is targeted by Bait Doll, you can chain it to destroy a Spell Card (Bait Doll). Normally, you would have to discard a card as a cost to do so.

Isn't that a case of cost not being paid, but effect still working?
 
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Raijinili said:
You still say that costs aren't paid, and I still say the effects don't come out.

I stated many times that the only evidence for the UDE game is not-not supporting evidence, which is very weak evidence for the "Effects still activate" side. I, on the other hand, have a JERP ruling.

The Wall of Revealing Light ruling is special because the cost of the card is variable. It is forced into a special case that is not considered illegal.
Click to expand...
Now that makes sense...since you don't actually have to pay anything for WoRL. It will give you no reduction if you do so... you could under normal circumstances flip it without paying anything, even if you were below 1000 LP, it is a special case all around. Probably the reason they made the ruling in the first place.

I had originally thought it was because it was continuous, but your thinking makes much more sense.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
What about "Judgment of Anubis"??? It says that if Anubis is targeted by Bait Doll, you can chain it to destroy a Spell Card (Bait Doll). Normally, you would have to discard a card as a cost to do so.

Isn't that a case of cost not being paid, but effect still working?
Click to expand...
No, you would activate JoA normal in chain to Bait Doll, just like you would Magic Jammer to any other magic card. Cost is paid as normal.

They are not refering to having Bait Doll force the activation of JoA.
 
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Actually, you wouldn't usually be able to pay 0 LP. That's because, if you remember, you can't activate a card that would do nothing (barring negation and stuff). So activating it and paying nothing would give you a card that does nothing.

Also, the JERP explains it as you being obligated to pay something as a cost. Similar to "Rope of Life", I would say.
 
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