ChaosMachine
New Member
please tell me this is correct. crossout on face down vampire lord. op chains deck dev virus. i chain compulsory evac. deck dev now does not resolve? and can deck dev be used on cards like fusilier while face down?
Deck Dev
- Thread starter ChaosMachine
- Start date
ancient_duelist
Gold Member
The Vampire Lord would already be Tributed for the activation cost of Deck Devastation Virus. There would be no chace to CED it and the effect of DDV will resolve. You can Tribute face-down monsters to activate DDV.ChaosMachine said:
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Fusilier Dragon's "condition" won't kick in until he is flipped face-up if he was set without Tribute, so as long as he is Tributed face-down, he will be a 2000+ attacker.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
How bout this...NLFW said:
Deck Devastation Virus: Tribute a face-down monster? 2005-09-28 21:31:00 <Nick Hosseini>
Can you tribute a face-down monster for Deck Devastation Virus' effect?
------------------------------------------------------
Answer:
You can Tribute a face-down, Dark-Attribute Monster Card with 2000 or more ATK to pay the cost of "Deck Devastation Virus."
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Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep
CurtisSchultz_Netrep@Hotmail.com
He isn't disagreeing with being able to tribute a 2000+ monster face-down. He is disagreeing with your theory that Fusilier isn't seen by the game as half attack when he is set without tribute. This has been debated for months and asked on the Judge's List at least a dozen times and if they aren't answering I think it is a bad idea to be telling people it is a legal move.
There is no documentation for this answer. This is assuming that the effect of Fusilier Dragon is not changing the ATK value of the monster until it is face-up on the field, although it is entirely possible that the effect actually modifies the ATK at the time of the summon. That is where he is taking exception to your answer.
You should have stuck to the answer for the original question as you were entirely right on that.
masterwoo0 said:
There is no documentation for this answer. This is assuming that the effect of Fusilier Dragon is not changing the ATK value of the monster until it is face-up on the field, although it is entirely possible that the effect actually modifies the ATK at the time of the summon. That is where he is taking exception to your answer.
You should have stuck to the answer for the original question as you were entirely right on that.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
So let's say you actually set a fusilier dragon face-down and your opponent tributes Giant Orc for Deck Dev.
By saying that you cannot tribute a face-down fusilier dragon for the effect Deck Dev is to alternatively say that a set Fusilier Dragon may indeed be destoyed if it is set without Tribute.
To not answer one, is to not answer the other, but you cant NOT answer the one on your opponent playing Deck Dev and you controlling a face-down non-tribute Fusilier Dragon (what I mean is, that without a clear answer either way, it is indeed a judgment call).
Even Arsenal Bug gets his defense during damage calculation if he is attacked face-down with no face-up Insects, which would mean that a monster still carries their stats until they are flipped face-up.
Arsenal Bug','ycard','width=600,height=600'); return false;">Arsenal Bug
A face-down "Arsenal Bug" that is flipped by attack will not have its effect apply until after Damage Calculation.
"Arsenal Bug" vs. "Megamorph" - If "Arsenal Bug" is equipped with "Megamorph," the effect of "Megamorph" will apply over the effect of "Arsenal Bug[/ycrd]."
By saying that you cannot tribute a face-down fusilier dragon for the effect Deck Dev is to alternatively say that a set Fusilier Dragon may indeed be destoyed if it is set without Tribute.
To not answer one, is to not answer the other, but you cant NOT answer the one on your opponent playing Deck Dev and you controlling a face-down non-tribute Fusilier Dragon (what I mean is, that without a clear answer either way, it is indeed a judgment call).
Even Arsenal Bug gets his defense during damage calculation if he is attacked face-down with no face-up Insects, which would mean that a monster still carries their stats until they are flipped face-up.
Arsenal Bug','ycard','width=600,height=600'); return false;">Arsenal Bug
A face-down "Arsenal Bug" that is flipped by attack will not have its effect apply until after Damage Calculation.
"Arsenal Bug" vs. "Megamorph" - If "Arsenal Bug" is equipped with "Megamorph," the effect of "Megamorph" will apply over the effect of "Arsenal Bug[/ycrd]."
I thought it was already well established that the halving process didn't kick in until Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast was flipped face-up?
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
That's what I thought as well, but I'm not above being wrong...Digital Jedi said:
masterwoo0 said:
Yes, I am saying that a Fusilier set without tribute would indeed be destroyed by Deck Devastation Virus. I truly believe that would be the case. We don't have an Official answer on that yet so apparently UDE is still not sure whether that is correct or not.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
It can only be correct if the alternative is not, so you can't have one, without the other.anthonyj said:
1. Fusilier Dragon (face-down) would be, according to you, 1400 attack without tribute.
No documentation means your conclusion is based on his effect while face-up or card text while in hand.
2. Fusilier Dragon (face-down) would be, according to me, 2800 attack without tribute.
No documentation means my conclusion is based on the fact that a face-down monster cannot assert his effect until he is flipped face-up, with of course exceptions that still require you to show your opponent the monster before activation.
3. Both conclusions contradict each other because one cannot be true unless it makes the other false, but one MUST be true.
I thought the ruling indicated that it was after being flipped:
If you Set "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" without Tribute, it has ATK 1400 and DEF 1000 when flipped face-up.
At least that's wht I thought the ruling was telling me. The basic mechancis of the game say that an effect is irrelevant face-down (barring thosee effects that specifically defy that rule).
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Sing on Preacher!! The Choir is behind you.....Digital Jedi said:
Cards can and do have effects while face-down. Big Shield Gardna, Double Coston it is not a fact that cards do not have a game mechanic recognized effect while face down. Just that the majority of effects are such that they must be face-up in order to be used.
If you tribute a face-down Fusilier set without tribute for Great Maju Garzett what will his attack be? At what point was he face-up on the field for his effect to "kick in"?
UDE is not confident nor competent to explain rulings in depth because it is Konami who hands them everything official. Although for the most part Judge's List rulings are correct in the instance they are addressing the answers have shown a preponderance of evidence to reflect that UDE officials do not understand how to explain the game mechanics to explain why the rulings are correct.
Only time will tell on the Deck Devastation Virus questions regarding Fusilier. Once Konami tells Kevin how it should be ruled we'll get an answer but they certainly do not contain the necessary knowledge to do so on their own. And although I respect the opinions of members here I have yet to see a majority opinion that is certain you are correct in your interpretation.
Perhaps someone like Mr. Danker, Simon, Cropz or Nova would deign to weigh in here.
If you tribute a face-down Fusilier set without tribute for Great Maju Garzett what will his attack be? At what point was he face-up on the field for his effect to "kick in"?
UDE is not confident nor competent to explain rulings in depth because it is Konami who hands them everything official. Although for the most part Judge's List rulings are correct in the instance they are addressing the answers have shown a preponderance of evidence to reflect that UDE officials do not understand how to explain the game mechanics to explain why the rulings are correct.
Only time will tell on the Deck Devastation Virus questions regarding Fusilier. Once Konami tells Kevin how it should be ruled we'll get an answer but they certainly do not contain the necessary knowledge to do so on their own. And although I respect the opinions of members here I have yet to see a majority opinion that is certain you are correct in your interpretation.
Perhaps someone like Mr. Danker, Simon, Cropz or Nova would deign to weigh in here.
masterwoo0 said:
Continuous Effects ('Arsenal Bug') are different from Conditions ('Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast'), 'Arsenal Bug''s effect is only applied while it's face-up (since it's a Continuous Effect), and wouldn't be destroyed by 'Deck Devastation Virus' is face-down, the same is not true for 'Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast' (also, 'Arsenal Bug''s effect doesn't modify its original attack, so the original attack is still 2000 for all 'Megamorph' cares).
Okay, I must not have been part of the debate on Fusilier Dragon, but there's some things here that seem quite clear, at least to me.anthonyj said:
If you tributed Fusilier face-down for Great Maju Garzett, wouldn't his ATK become 2800 x 2 regardless of if he was Set without tribute? Based on the logic I presented, flipping face-up would be irrelevant.
It's not? I'd have to say that's not true. Cards do not have effects while face-down and if I'm not mistaken, this is documented somewhere (though hard to find with the Judges List poor search feature).anthonyj said:
Double Coston can be tributed for a 2 tribute monster while face-down. Is it the effect of Double Coston that allows that? Are you suggesting that Double Coston is a graveyard effect?
Okay now add Skill Drain to the equation if Skill Drain is active on the field Double Coston can not be tributed while face-up for a 2 tribute monster. Meaning the effect is active on the field and being negated (thus not a graveyard effect). However if Skill Drain is active on the field and Double Coston is face-down it can be tributed for a 2 tribute monster. Thus it has an effect which is not being negated while it is face-down. How would you define it if not a face-down effect?
-Edit- I won't even get into how obvious it is that Big Shield Gardna has an effect while face-down as certainly that is indisputable.
Okay now add Skill Drain to the equation if Skill Drain is active on the field Double Coston can not be tributed while face-up for a 2 tribute monster. Meaning the effect is active on the field and being negated (thus not a graveyard effect). However if Skill Drain is active on the field and Double Coston is face-down it can be tributed for a 2 tribute monster. Thus it has an effect which is not being negated while it is face-down. How would you define it if not a face-down effect?
-Edit- I won't even get into how obvious it is that Big Shield Gardna has an effect while face-down as certainly that is indisputable.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Of course it wouldnt be applied while he is face-down because his attack is 2000. The fact that there are no other Insects on the field cannot affect him while he is face-down, but you the player know that if he is flip summoned, his attack/defense will go to 1000.Cropz said:
Arsenal Bug might be a continuous effect where his attack/defense will adjust depending on additional Insects, but it is still a condition for his attack to "remain" at 2000. There must be another Insect face-up on the field.
Also, if you can say without an existing ruling, that Fusilier Dragon "will be" 1400 attack if you attempt to tribute him for Deck Dev, then I can say with the same uncertainty that you can, and it will be 2800.
The ruling for Fusilier is, "when he is flipped face-up, his attack will be 1400."
Who doesnt understand that? You knew that when you set him without tribute. Why again state the obvious?